yeah Le, I think people that're hooked on things get caught in this short repeating loop/cycle and the key is find something obviously , that kicks the person out of that infinite loop .... yoga , yes ... heavy duty mountain/road biking, yes ... etcetra etcetra ....

youre all full of pretentious ego shit but so be it

>There are many yogas,

This would make any careful thinker cautious about issuing blanket statements regarding what is or is not a legitimate part of yogic practice. Unfortunately, not everyone who participates in these threads is a careful thinker.

The simple fact is that many yogic and tantric scriptures (as well as the voluminous commentarial literature) do advocate the use of psychoactive plants in some circumstances.

*Moreover, the sheer number of yogins, babas, and sadhus who make use of entheoghens belies any simple prohibitionist stances*

These plants have very long history and an honored place in a great many yogic and tantric traditions. You don’t have to like this fact, but you can’t sweep it under the historical/intellectual rug.

>the general instruction is avoidance of Tamas and Raja gunas such as
>meat and intoxication

Since there are so many traditions, it is simply a gross oversimplification to talk about a “general instruction”. This may be a common instruction in -your- yogic tradition but is not one that can be generalized across divergent traditions.

Meat and wine form absolutely *essential* ingredients in many ritual practices within tantric traditions including my own tradition (Vajrayana).

>and rather one should become situated in the Sattva guna.

Classifying foods and medicinal substances according to their guna and/or dosa can be useful. However, I have observed that this often tends to lead to a simpleminded and one-dimensional approach that is not so useful (this seems especially true of Westerners, who are generally unfamiliar with the complexity and subtlety of these conceptual frameworks).

Moreover, while meat and alcohol are generally considered tamasik, other psychoactives such as bhang are regarded as sattvik. According to your own argument, bhang would be a helpful food. However, saying meat and alcohol should be avoided in favor of bhang is exactly the sort of simplemindedness I just referred to. In numerous traditions, all three are considered helpful in -some- circumstances (and unhelpful in other circumstances). I’m not sure if you will be able to wrap you head around that fact, but it is a fact nonetheless.

>something watered down, cheap, and without results

The moral and intellectual inconsistency of believing the endogenous psychopharmacological effects are legitimate but -identical- exogenous psychopharmacological effects are somehow “watered down and cheap” is obvious. Such a stance intellectually is laughable and morally it smacks of ignorant self-righteousness. Moreover, it is directly contradicted by a great many yogic and tantric scriptures, which in actuality prescribe psychoactive plant in a variety of circumstances.

The attempted avoidance of psychoactives may be part of -your- yogic path but quit trying to speak for the entire family of yoga traditions, many of which make use of these foods and medicines (including my own tradition).

Given the prevalence of ignorant and reactionary attitudes towards psychoactives in our culture I guess I should have expected these attitudes to show up in this discussion.

Best Regards
Ryan

"the general instruction is avoidance of Tamas and Raja gunas... rather one should become situated in the Sattva guna.

This is consistent with the teachings Kapila (Samkhya) and Patanjali (Yoga). There are those who believe that teachings that deviate from this are distortions and degradations of the true yoga teaching.

It is not always easy to distinguish what is Tamas and Rajas and what is Sattva. The use of entheogens is a perfect example. Some explorers equate psychedelic experiences with spiritual practice or advancement. In time they may find that their insight was really delusion. In other words, what they thought was sattva turned out to be tamas.


Sam

Yeah let's not have another topic turn into a debate over drugs. To each his/her own. Let's agree to disagree.

Stephen,

"I don't think anyone who claims that to reach ultimate satori, nirvana, enlightenment, or complete unfoldment of the personality through the precepts of a dogmatic instruction knows what they are talking about."

You risk offending a lot of people with statements like this. I happen to agree with you up to a point. Philosophy is all about examining one's beliefs, not following them blindly. One of the principles of yoga is self-study, which I think is really about just that sort of thing.

Psychedelics are a "walk on the slippery rocks". Yoga can be a good way to "leave your mind alone and just get high". Yoga can enhance the psychedelic experience, but do psychedelics enhance the yoga experience? Maybe...maybe not.

Sam