Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

topic posted Sun, April 6, 2008 - 4:41 AM by  Le
Recently I got myself in an uncomfortable and dangerous situation that my yoga experience saved me from. Long story, short: I had taken some ecstasy/MDMA, at as the effects were coming like that
posted by:
Le
offline Le
Los Angeles
  • Le
    Le
    offline 56

    Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

    Sun, April 6, 2008 - 5:49 AM
    Sorry my laptop crashed before I could finish my post. So anyway yeah the effects of the ecstasy were coming on really strong while I was still driving home. I was on the freeway too, not much traffic but still there cars here and there and it was nighttime. I started to get really nervous, all the lights from the cars were so bright, and worst of all, I could not see straight. I had to shake my head every five seconds to be able to see whether I remained in my lane. I kept my speed at 60mph and stayed at least 50 ft from cars in front of me.

    Towards the end of the drive, perhaps the last ten minutes, I started to take long, deep breaths to calm myself down. Now I don't know if it's a result of the ecstasy or the result of yoga sessions I practiced at recently, but each time I was taking those breaths, my vision cleared right up. Then I kept doing it, long, deep breaths, and I felt a lot better as we moved, and obviously I made it home safely. I hear this is the same strategy that is recommended for individuals who own and drive cars and are prone to spontaneous, life-threatening panic attacks: to just chill out, stay calm, and breath at the very least.
    • Le
      Le
      offline 56

      Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

      Sun, April 6, 2008 - 5:51 AM
      From the book...
      Pursuit of Ecstasy: The MDMA Experience.
      Beck, Jerome, and Rosenbaum, Marsha. (1994).
      Albany, NY: State University of New York Press.

      A 24-year-old Bhakti yoga practitioner explained how MDMA helped guide her on a spiritual path:

      "Bhakti is the yoga of devotion, and I'm trying to see every experience in life as leading us closer to God and bringing out a more loving, harmonious way of being with other people and generally just having a devotional attitude. ... MDMA's been very useful from a Bhakti yoga perspective, because it's very heart-opening and that's what you try to do in Bhakti yoga. So I think that it could have potential for people who want to learn to do that who don't already know how, especially."
      • Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

        Tue, April 8, 2008 - 10:42 AM
        Le - Have you considered how, from a Bhakti yoga perspective, taking the risk of killing people via making a poor choice to drive while high for one's own pleasure might be considered less than loving towards others and outside of the scope of right action?
        • Le
          Le
          offline 56

          Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

          Tue, April 8, 2008 - 6:10 PM
          Well based on my past experiences with MDMA and how long it usually takes to take effect on me, I basically expected to be able to make it home safely in time. My estimate turned out to be wrong and obviously I will take this into account from now on.

          The point of this thread is to share how yoga and breathing helped get me through a potentially dangerous experience (yes dangerous not just for me but everyone else on the road, in fact that's why I was freaked out cuz there were other cars around me), and while MDMA (and my misjudgment) got me into the risky situation, it also aided in alleviating it towards the end. I have tried breathing techniques in many different forms, meditation, yoga, acupuncture, and even did Chi Gong for a year during my teens (long before I touched drugs of any sort). But I truly have never really felt the relaxation and clarity everyone talks about until this last experience.
          • Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

            Wed, April 9, 2008 - 8:57 AM
            Le,

            I have felt just fabulous--a little too fabulous in fact--after taking valium to relieve my shoulder knots, but it's artificial, temporary, and reliant upon an external stimulus.

            It's a ton of work, but one of the goals is to be able to feel the sense of relaxation and freedom without introducing alien chemicals into your body. The "high" you can get after a great yoga and/or meditation session is quite different because while you feel relaxed and wonderful, you are also aware and responsible.

            Heck, try getting a good massage or an acupuncture treatment and really breathe through the entire session.

            But Fifi has a great point--next time pull over and call a friend to come get you or sleep in your car. You would never live with yourself if you were to cause harm to others.
          • Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

            Wed, April 23, 2008 - 8:56 AM
            Le - "My estimate turned out to be wrong and obviously I will take this into account from now on."

            I'm curious Le, does this mean you intend to continue driving after you've taken E? Why not just wait until you arrive at your destination to dose? It minimizes the danger to yourself and others and maximizes the potential fun.

            Papa - To me, talking to an adult after the fact about their actions is very obviously a different situation than caring for someone who is high and having a bad trip (or a child who's ingested drugs because of adult negligence).
    • Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

      Mon, April 7, 2008 - 10:29 AM
      I'm glad that your yogic breathing helped you and you got home safely, and I definitely agree that pranayama can be very helpful to people who suffer from panic attacks.

      But, I feel like the best decision in a case like this one would be to pull off the road. You could have caused an accident, which is contrary to the principle of ahimsa (non-harming).
      • Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

        Tue, April 8, 2008 - 10:12 AM
        Hey Le,
        I'm glad you got home safely too! Breathing is an amazing thing and not everyone does it. It helps with anxiety, especially when the brain is overloaded and in your case it was overstimulation. Of course, when I experimented with ecstasy back in college, I wasn't practicing yoga. I know I could've probably used this very simple tool.

        Thanks for sharing,
        -Liz
    • Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

      Tue, April 22, 2008 - 4:35 PM
      I find these reactions interesting.

      personally, i don't see why it should matter if he was still feeling the effects of MDMA, having a panic attack or a bad case of the hiccups. His situation in that moment was dictated by the choice to either freak-out (which would increase the odds of something horrific happening) or to center himself and reconnect with the flow. I think he wisely recognized the gravity of his predicament and made the appropriate action to remedy the situation.

      This reminds me of a time when I came upon a mother whose young son (5-6yo) had mistakenly eaten some 'special' mushroom chocolate his father had carelessly left in the family car from a weekend outing with his friends. One course of action would have been to panic, rush him to the hospital and submit the tripping child to the trauma of a hospital examination and potential bureaucratic interventions. However, having been a tripsitter many times in my past, I calmly consulted with the mother and child, helping them become more relaxed about their situation.

      I still run into that mom from time to time and she still thanks me for helping them through that little crisis. In the end, the two of them went home where she made the house mellow and prepared some healthy treats. She said that though he was aware his reality was substantially distorted, he did fine, mostly just giggling and playing the rest of the day and sleeping in longer than usual the next day. Certainly the father was reprimanded by the mother for his carelessness, but what's more important was how to handle the situation in the moment rather than to dwell on how the situation came to be. Lastly, with this situation and the former one, it is also important to learn from the choices made so as to know how better to deal with future situations.


      • Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

        Wed, April 23, 2008 - 7:34 AM
        The difference between having a panic attack while driving and driving under the influence of MDMA is this: If you have a panic attack while driving, you didn't do in on purpose. You didn't choose to drive while in that potentially dangerout situation. Choosing to drive while under the influence of any potent drug, however, is exactly that: a choice. A choice that puts you and others at unnecessary risk.
        • Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

          Wed, April 23, 2008 - 10:16 AM


          what if the panic attack came as a result of leaving the house in a rush without having eaten breakfast and downing a triple latte from a drive-through? Is that any different?
          • Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

            Wed, April 23, 2008 - 10:51 AM
            papa - Dropping E and then getting into your car to drive somewhere seems different to me than the situation you've outlined simply because you're consciously choosing the action. I'm not anti-drug and I'm glad that Le had enough wits left about him to calm himself down while he was driving high and no one got hurt this time. I think people who drive drunk are being reckless with other people's lives too. In both cases the person who's high is unlikely to be a good judge of their own abilities and is potentially overly confident (particularly when taking a feel good drug like E).
            • Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

              Thu, April 24, 2008 - 11:20 AM


              i'm not all that convinced any of you really read my posts. There seems to be such an irrational attachment to wanting to judge the initial choice of him taking the MDMA and driving. Sure I think there is something to be said for a time to reflect and learn, but, much like the original poster, I'm talking about a larger context with an emphasis on being mindful in the moment of making a choice amidst a potentially expanding crisis.

              Believe me, I get it that certain substances in large doses make it difficult for most people to have difficulty remaining mindful and in full control of their actions. BUT, what's the point in focusing merely on the substances rather than the importance of being mindful in every moment? Like I said before, driving with low blood sugar is dangerous ...one could even conceive of the danger in getting into a car after an intense session of ashtanga. We ought not fear unforeseen crises, but to develop the skills to consciously contend with them as they arise.

              As to my comparison between the original poster and the child, in both cases they knowingly ingested a substance and were treated to unintended consequences. The difference lay in that our tripping driver figured a way out of his situation on his own whereas the child had the benefit of a pair of adults to help him through. In the end, they both averted the chaos of panic and benefited from being centered and relaxed.
              • Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

                Thu, April 24, 2008 - 1:07 PM
                papa,

                The plot is often missed when anything being perceived as potentially negative is being spoken about and the bigger picture often looked over. Which is surprising to me since most of us ought to be deeper thinkers considering the Philosophical implications of the Practice we keep.

                K
  • Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

    Wed, April 23, 2008 - 9:06 PM
    Most all of us here are familiar with Yogic Philosophy as well as others. On a deeper level, a Spiritual & Souls level, do we all *really* understand what are Soul's are looking for?

    What *if* What *If* Le did kill someone on the road because he was high? What if he killed someone on the road because he was tired? What if he killed someone on the road because he looked down at his cell phone?

    You're most likely thinking, "The idea is to minimize the risk of these situations by making responsible choices" Which I agree with b/c I'd hate to be the person with kids in the car having a literal run in with someone who's high, I feel as though I and my boys have some living to do. I'm also saying that if something is in the cards, it's in the cards. High, sober, tired or in any other state. On or off the road.

    A lot of people judge death as bad and negative but isn't that what ultimately sets us free? As radical as this sounds this is a part of what Yoga Teaches. A part that on the surface bothers me b/c of attachments, but deeper gives me a great feeling of Peace. Peace in knowing & feeling that this (this life, temporary, here) is a blip on the radar. Fear is why I wouldn't want to willingly leave ans Fear is why most people feel the same.

    Katrina
    • Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

      Thu, April 24, 2008 - 5:20 AM
      The idea that death "sets us free" seems like a very Christian idea to me, not a yogic one. My understanding is that in most versions of yogic philosophies the core concept is that Enlightenment sets one free. And certainly in any reincarnation theology death does not set one free and only enlightenment has that power. I've never seen murder advocated in yogic philosophies or the idea that one shouldn't be conscious of or responsible for one's actions.
      • Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

        Thu, April 24, 2008 - 8:33 AM
        It's not a Christian idea. It's a Philosophical one, perhaps you might pick of the book "Life After Death" by Deepak Chopra.

        "Enlightenment" is a loaded word. Please define for me your definition of this word Fifi.

        K
        • Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

          Thu, April 24, 2008 - 8:57 AM
          Katrina - I'd suggest it's a Christian idea as well as being philosophical and theological. I've read a fair amount of Deepak's books as well as ones by authors who are much closer to the source and more scholarly than Deepak. Deepak writes self help books he hopes will be popular in a Judeo-Christian culture so he slants his books that way. Reincarnation doesn't position death as liberation but as the state between rebirths - the way to step off the wheel is through enlightenment (which is consider to be a state that cannot be captured in words). There are many ideas of what "enlightenment" is - my personal one is irrelevant when speaking about the writings of other people (just as your personal one is), those writer's and philosopher's idea of enlightenment are what would be relevant in this discussion. Either way, neither Christianity or yogic traditions look kindly upon killing other people and quite explicitly point out that one will be held responsible for one's actions either in the afterlife (you'll go to Hell) or the next life (Karma).
          • Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

            Thu, April 24, 2008 - 9:13 AM
            But what if the person whom you kill in a car accident didn't want to be liberated or enlightened? Isn't it arrogance to think that we are doing them a favor by "setting them free" of the bondage of the physical body?

            Everything about what happens after death is speculation, wishful thinking, or leaps of faith. There's no real proof that anything happens to our souls or spirits after death, and people believe many different things. I'm not saying those beliefs are wrong, they are just beliefs, to which people are entitled, but what is wrong is for people to impose their beliefs on others.

            Yes, fear of death is one of the obstacles we are supposed to overcome on the path of yoga. But it's up to us to work on it for ourselves, and not to force others into our path.

            Ancient Buddhists walked around on ridiculous platform shoes so that they would not accidentally kill an ant. I'm not saying we should take the same precaution, but we should do what we can not to cause harm (or death) to others.
            • Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

              Thu, April 24, 2008 - 1:03 PM
              "But what if the person whom you kill in a car accident didn't want to be liberated or enlightened? Isn't it arrogance to think that we are doing them a favor by "setting them free" of the bondage of the physical body?"

              I think the vast majority of people that kill another (not meaning to) aren't thinking about whether or not they are setting the other free. I'm asking you to entertain the notion that our Soul's work on a different level than our minds and the things our minds judge.

              Kimberly, do you think Death is "bad" or "negative"? What do you think happens to '"your" Soul after Death?

              K
              • Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

                Thu, April 24, 2008 - 1:44 PM
                Death is part of life, frankly a part I find rather sucky, but how I feel about it isn't important. It's how the victim and the people surrounding the victim would view the death of someone that we have to consider.

                And yes, for the people surrounding someone, death is quite often a huge negative, particularly in premature deaths, such if I got really drunk and hit someone with my car. I don't fault people for feeling that way, because grief is part of the human experience and not every human is so liberated that the death of say their teenage son won't hurt them deeply. Telling them they should be grateful because their son is now liberated from bondage sounds patronizing to me. If we believe that we should avoid causing suffering then we should try to avoid things that we know has a fairly good potential for harming others. Even if we think the parents of the teenage son are foolish for viewing death negatively, causing the death of their son is still causing harm.

                Of course, I was really young and incredibly stupid many years ago (as I'm sure many of us have been--and note, I'm not trying to bash Le on this at all), but as people age hopefully they find some wisdom, compassion for others, and responsibility. Hopefully we learn to think beyond our own needs when we take risks.

                I don't have a concrete clue as to what happens to us after we die because I've never met anyone who's lived to tell about it.
                • Le
                  Le
                  offline 56

                  Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

                  Thu, April 24, 2008 - 3:08 PM
                  "just take the bus or the metro/subway if you're gonna dance with the devil ."

                  Actually I've already started doing this, not necessarily cuz of my driving on E incident, but cuz I am fed up with LA traffic and gas price$. So rest assured, the public will be safer next time I am rolling my balls off.

                  And going back to the topic of relaxation techniques, I've come to realize the difference in my mood when I drive versus when I walk/take subway. I recall one of the things I miss the most about college (oddly enough) was my morning routine of walking to the subway station and commuting to campus. I could listen to my headphones, etc, and it just felt good. I guess I just hate fucking driving. Living in LA doesn't help much either.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

                    Thu, April 24, 2008 - 3:22 PM
                    Le - "Actually I've already started doing this, not necessarily cuz of my driving on E incident, but cuz I am fed up with LA traffic and gas price$. So rest assured, the public will be safer next time I am rolling my balls off."

                    Cool, good to know you won't be ending up us road kill for a silly reason too. Enjoy your journeys.
                • Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

                  Sat, April 26, 2008 - 1:01 PM
                  Kimberly,

                  "Telling them they should be grateful because their son is now liberated from bondage sounds patronizing to me."

                  Which part of what I said caused you to feel that the above response is something I would tell a family which just lost their son? (I'm asking because I think you were responding to me here, if you weren't then I'm mistaken)

                  "I don't have a concrete clue as to what happens to us after we die because I've never met anyone who's lived to tell about it."

                  Well, there have been many that claim to have lived and told about it but that's not what I'm asking you. Have you not thought about and reconciled your own Death with a personal belief?

                  I think it is possible to stop living your own life because of being so concerned about others. People have seizures driving, people don't pay attention, people text or talk on the phone which I'm sure pretty much everyone here is guilty of at some point, people drive without their glasses.

                  Can't control what happens or how it happens all of the time, and in worrying so much about our effect on others sometimes we completely miss the plot. I agree there is a level of consideration we should show others but here, everyone went off on a "How could you!" tangent and missed Le's message.

                  If Cancer, Heart Disease & Car Accidents (among all other forms of accidental death) were not an unfortunate fact of life and we all lived into old age our World would have more serious issues than it's facing now and in another 50 years I don't think anyone would be considerate of others as they war with their neighbors to feed their own.

                  Your personal Truth is to be responsible, caring and compassionate. I share that with you to a point but I also realize what this world would be like if we were all that way.

                  Katrina
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Breathing and psychoactive chemicals

                    Sun, April 27, 2008 - 6:31 AM
                    Katrina - "Your personal Truth is to be responsible, caring and compassionate. I share that with you to a point but I also realize what this world would be like if we were all that way."

                    What do you believe the world would be like if everyone was responsible, caring and compassionate?