http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e?format=rss Tribe.net. Local Connections http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#9a161d9c-e1b1-4ca7-b47e-af4b15ea11fa What stuck out to me was the beginning of the sentence "Somewhere..." The meaning seemed more universal than tactile. "yes, an extreme example, but this comes up in rape trials often: people say a woman "has it coming" and suddenly it's blame the victim" Of course they say that, it's either admit the crime or face the consequences and I doubt anyone that would commit that crime to begin with is willing to face the consequences of their own accord. I do wonder on what level, spiritually, we collaborate on? . . That was the point I pulled out from what she said. Tue, 08 Jul 2008 02:12:25 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#9a161d9c-e1b1-4ca7-b47e-af4b15ea11fa Katrina 2008-07-08T02:12:25Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#9fbe007c-bb48-4a8d-82ac-ec4e2acf143b the point is, i cannot be held responsible for the actions of everyone i come in contact with yes, an extreme example, but this comes up in rape trials often: people say a woman "has it coming" and suddenly it's blame the victim Sun, 06 Jul 2008 16:01:20 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#9fbe007c-bb48-4a8d-82ac-ec4e2acf143b K 2008-07-06T16:01:20Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#197c9e60-41de-40e6-b7d6-174e09e0e8dc Kimberly, I scrolled down and found it, thank you. Why draw the comparison of rape here, why not something philisophical & pertinent to the example Ma was trying to make? Please elaborate what you meant to convey when you posted that response. The comparison of raping children to personal responsibility. . seems like throwing a boulder into a puddle to cause a ripple. The boulder's too big and I feel the topic of raping children is the same in this conversation. K Sun, 06 Jul 2008 05:44:59 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#197c9e60-41de-40e6-b7d6-174e09e0e8dc Katrina 2008-07-06T05:44:59Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#39949621-e888-4799-a9dc-9ce3b0fe9b02 I would have to say that it depends on the context in which you are conducting and taking the classes. Also, it's not clear to me that many so-called "styles" of yoga are focused on the energy aspects, but more the "phsyical" aspects, or they confuse asanas with pranayama and so on. Aerobic style yoga doesn't do what it professes to do, and doing balancing postures a lot, with tons of down dog and so on tends to put the focus on the effort and not the connecting or moving closer the beginning aspects of yoga practice, awareness, breath and movement. They can be connected so that one can not tell the difference between them, and subsequently a door is reached into what real practice is for, which is meditation. This is clear from the ladder of Patanjali, of which asanas are merely one step. Taken in their context, they CAN be of assistance in spiritual growth, definitely. I talk about this a lot in my own blog postings. Thanks and Om, DurgaDas Regis Chapman Silent Motion Yoga www.silentmotion.org Fri, 04 Jul 2008 23:22:08 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#39949621-e888-4799-a9dc-9ce3b0fe9b02 $item.owner.firstName 2008-07-04T23:22:08Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#bf746b79-4f39-4668-b9c5-87996127fbe8 yes, ma i dated june 19 I believe Thu, 03 Jul 2008 23:42:13 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#bf746b79-4f39-4668-b9c5-87996127fbe8 K 2008-07-03T23:42:13Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#c684c561-ff1d-4821-bab6-ab339aab0bdd Hey Kimberly, Your response was pretty close the the beginning of the thread and I could't find the quote to reference who you were talking to? Mind elaborating so I can follow along? (and maybe it was up towards the front and I just missed it, there's a lot to go through) K Wed, 02 Jul 2008 04:39:01 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#c684c561-ff1d-4821-bab6-ab339aab0bdd Katrina 2008-07-02T04:39:01Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#e4d6fedd-31ec-4d6e-a05b-1c84c050ffad "Somewhere I AM responsible for every other person's thoughts or desires in relationship to the way that I present myself to the world. " just to play devil's advocate here, we all know rape is the new weapon of terror in modern warfare and children in Congo for example have been the target of such brutality: http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-oe-holmes11oct11,1,1575504.story?ctrack=1&cset=true so, at what age are we responsible for other people's thoughts, particularly if it is a brutal violent one? and yes, i know full well rape is a hate crime and not born out of desire Wed, 02 Jul 2008 01:43:50 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#e4d6fedd-31ec-4d6e-a05b-1c84c050ffad K 2008-07-02T01:43:50Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#3ba5f5aa-1eee-4948-8d20-8a332a193fe6 wow side update that had to be the day an instructor said soemthign so rude I virtually never went back. A huge argument ensued because K. was ill an dtheir service never coudl say who the instructors were and when she would be back etc.. etc.. I lost 99.00 because we couldn't resolve a conflict abotu ethics, fair thoughtful instruction, and beign nice in place of hiding behind policy when many other policies were broken. Tue, 01 Jul 2008 12:51:29 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#3ba5f5aa-1eee-4948-8d20-8a332a193fe6 yogamoon 2008-07-01T12:51:29Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#5f1b1196-4e2a-4d4f-a484-178519231649 Somewhere I AM responsible for every other person's thoughts or desires in relationship to the way that I present myself to the world. It's a fact of this life in these skin suits that man finds the female shape sexy. Some women do too. Its not rocket science. Its not up for debate either. Therefore if I'm not responsible, or don't WANT to be, then it's a case of wishing for the fantasy against the reality. Previously I dressed in a manner which I would now consider undignified in guiding my yoga classes. And it was hardly what any Westerner would consider lewd. I'm now much more aware of the way my body, posture, expression, & dress effects others, even my own consciousness. Sexuality is a color Westerners have given to Yoga, like so many labels, shapes, and shades of name-brand clothing. It's our spice that we put into everyting but in my opinion it spoils the broth. Whereas the outer show of objectivity will never prepare for the pure inner quest, but to harmonize the two, and to recognize the inherent reflection therein is part of the gift of continuing awareness. And responsability is that which joins us together as a family of Yoga practioners and spiritual aspirants. The responsability grows as the sadhaka develops. Wishing everyone here benefit from continued practice... Jai MA! Thu, 19 Jun 2008 08:26:07 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#5f1b1196-4e2a-4d4f-a484-178519231649 ma i 2008-06-19T08:26:07Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#f1f2ec4b-9834-454d-9140-35aa564a3c5d I eat chocolate ise cream whenever i want .. thank goodness it is nto often. Thanks kimberley.. btw when are you getting back to Seattle? We are having lots of fun here. I jopined Yogiway.. Katerina Wen's studio for an intensive and really like it.. interesting poses and stretches. Wed, 21 May 2008 17:13:38 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#f1f2ec4b-9834-454d-9140-35aa564a3c5d yogamoon 2008-05-21T17:13:38Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#1975877f-1170-4a96-ae60-a5b1a00a82f0 Does being thin and attractive by Northern European standards help Shiva Rea's success? Yes, of course it helps her out, but this phenomenon is hardly limited to yoga. A study published in The Economist a few months back showed that thin and attractive people have an advantage in the Western business world across all professions. But does this mean that all thin and attractive people are therefore incompetent? Of course not. If you don't care for the teachings of someone, don't attend their trainings. If you are not comfortable with the idea of women's bodies exposed in public, don't go to clothing optional hot springs or beaches. I'm very very tempted by chocolate ice cream, but I don't expect it to be banned just because I sometimes have moments of weakness. Quite simple really. Wed, 21 May 2008 15:33:18 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#1975877f-1170-4a96-ae60-a5b1a00a82f0 K 2008-05-21T15:33:18Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#70fed90f-fca9-49c1-9fc1-e0567942f653 answer to the main question.. do yoga classes help with spiuritual growth? YES they do But you also have to do the inner work as well as the outer work. You have to be willing to look at yourself and ego and be humble, unattached, to suffer a bit, to be introspective, to listen, to meditate, to fall ove r in a posture and get back up and do it again... and to laern and grow from it. Otherwise yoga may be simply physical exercise and stress reduction.. and that is nto bad either. Namaste friends. I am in a wonderful program at yogiway in Seattle by Katerina Wen, inspired through her learning from Shiva Rea and A. Lappa. Tue, 20 May 2008 19:38:48 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#70fed90f-fca9-49c1-9fc1-e0567942f653 yogamoon 2008-05-20T19:38:48Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#fe694b6a-2182-4948-a8f6-71af9ea4f980 I disagree with Jeevan re Shiva Rea. Sh eis very devoted to her students and takes tiem to alk with peopl ein workshops before and after and to personally answer emails. I am very impressed by her personability. Tue, 20 May 2008 19:35:08 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#fe694b6a-2182-4948-a8f6-71af9ea4f980 yogamoon 2008-05-20T19:35:08Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#34e8537f-aa1b-4b43-9693-7992575f3661 ;-) Mon, 19 May 2008 22:48:59 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#34e8537f-aa1b-4b43-9693-7992575f3661 JEEVAN 2008-05-19T22:48:59Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#e00ec76a-c8ff-4055-8fc4-1597e24ecb35 Clearly you know Shiva Rea better than I do. I have not seen or heard of any evidence of a lack of devotion to her students. I don't know anything about Rodney Yee, so I won't comment. And again I am not sure what your point is. I googled the Vanity Fair shot. Is your point that it is a commercial? If your issue is with yoga-american style, I can get that. But that's not what you are saying. The inappropriate nudity I really do not get. She is wearing the exact amount of clothes as Swami Vishnu Devananda in his book. And her breasts are covered by the big stupid bead thing. And even though the commercialness is lame, I love that she is this strong , healthy, vibrant woman approaching middle age who is completely comfortable in her body - without any obvious body work. and I think that if that is what she is teaching - that yoga is a way to connect with our body as our home for our time here on earth - and maybe that is not a high enough goal for some - but you know, it is for certain a lesson that many many americans need to hear. If thats out of line with your reasons for practicing yoga, then of course you are free to seek your bliss elsewhere. However, I do not think it is fair to say she is irresponsible on that account. Is it the attractiveness factor? Are Erich Shiffman and Ana Forrest more legitimate because they are less attractive? I know lots of the early followers of Yogi Bhajan found him extremely attractive back in the day. Is it the fact that she makes money? Lots of "real gurus" have made millions in the US. Muktananda's group has money, Mahareshi built a town with a university. Yogi Bhajan seemed to have plenty of money. Do you not think these men used their charisma to their advantage? I know people who were incredibly and dangerously infatuated with some "real" gurus. I feel like this is going around in circles. Mon, 19 May 2008 05:08:19 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#e00ec76a-c8ff-4055-8fc4-1597e24ecb35 jana 2008-05-19T05:08:19Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#881e9fb5-dacb-4a9e-afea-5a4ca4099e28 If your a Yoga practitioner that is one thing but a Yoga teacher has responsibilities. Shiva Rea is devoted to her revenue streams, her touring, her status. Not so much her students. Rodney Yee is famous because he's photogenic, good looking, that attracts people, that sells videos. He too is a great marketer. What is it that attracts people,...It is pure second chakra power. I shouldnt have called it sex power, that is too imprecise. Second chakra power is pure charisma, not one that makes you feel an internal sweetness, or peace or well being but one that jazzes you, subtly excites you. Google the Vanity fair Photo shoot. Throw your own Sanyama on them, What chakra of yours responds to the back drop of your quiet mind? Sun, 18 May 2008 07:06:50 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#881e9fb5-dacb-4a9e-afea-5a4ca4099e28 JEEVAN 2008-05-18T07:06:50Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#5c921be9-5f87-45f5-b855-f68ec2d05309 On line discussions are one dimensional and are not a great way to communicate obviously. The experience I wrote about my yoga teacher and underwear ( sounds funny ) Was the first step in being groomed as a teacher in the esoteric art of yoga. And that is that I have a responsibility to develop awareness and sensitivity to other's well being. I dont need to control it and I am not responsible for it, but like the principal of Ahimsa; I need to do what I can to not be the undue cause of anybodies grief etc. Sun, 18 May 2008 05:24:01 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#5c921be9-5f87-45f5-b855-f68ec2d05309 JEEVAN 2008-05-18T05:24:01Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#0c7ceb20-30ba-4a47-9c1c-8b07dded9190 After that rant, I think I should say that Shiva Rea really is not my favorite teacher. I prefer a gentler energy. Also, there is a very popular teacher in my area that I avoid because that teacher exudes a sexuality that definitely does make me uncomfortable. Really my point is that we all have a choice and a responsibility for what we take in and what we get out of class. If I was too hard on you Jeevan, I apologise. But reading over your posts, I am really not sure where you are coming from. Sat, 17 May 2008 21:07:20 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#0c7ceb20-30ba-4a47-9c1c-8b07dded9190 jana 2008-05-17T21:07:20Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#a54a55ff-617d-4e51-b648-5d3832bf3314 Jeevan, I am not sure what your point is. Are you saying that you think Shiva Rea is like women who go dress provocatively and go to night clubs to get free drinks from hapless and horny men? Are you saying that you think nobody should look to her for wisdom since she was photographed topless? Are you saying that real yoginis don't shave? Are you saying yogis shouldn't go commando to class? Are you saying we should roll back the clock to a time when women couldn't vote, compete with men in the work force? Perhaps you are confusing spiritual with cultural? In many cultures the sight of a woman's breasts is not considered a sexually provocative thing. Just pick up a National Geographic. We all carry different baggage. My husband is a classically trained artist, he looks at the photos of Jasper Johal and talks about the light and composition, some one else may say "look at those tits". Where I live in Los Angeles, its a very diverse society. And fortunately there seems to be something for everyone. If a class has a vibe or a teacher that makes me uncomfortable, I have options. I am looking at "The Complete Illustrated Book of Yoga" by Swami Vishnu Devananda. He is topless and wearing a nylon speedo. There is picture after picture of him demonstrating the most amazing asanas. And if one cares to look, in some of the photos one can actually tell through the nylon speedo that he has a penis. (OH MY!!) Do you think his intention was for women to look at him and get stirred by the sight? Of course not! You state that men and women are different animals, but obviously we are same species. That 's how it works. It takes males and females of the same animal, at least for mammals. And yes there are differences which can sometimes trouble some of us. One of the reasons I practice yoga is to help me get past those differences, to see the divine in all my fellow humans, whether male of female, whether they shave or not, go commando to yoga class, pose topless and wearing speedos, make their living being as a yoga celebrity or a swami or whatever, etc., etc.,etc., Please don't be surprised that attacking feminism makes some women upset. We know our history, we are up on current events, we enjoy our rights to vote, to pursue a career and lifestyle and mate of our choice. Statistically it is quite likely that some of us have even been victims of violence from men who believed that we somehow provoked that violence with our sexuality. I personally feel that part of being aware and respectful of personal space and consciousness would preclude an attack on the "ugliness of feminism 10" on this particular tribe. Is your intention to share your thoughts/experiences with how yoga classes helped with your spiritual growth? Or is it to stir up some women who perhaps you feel have gotten too uppity or who are dressing too provocatively to their yoga classes? Its pretty hard to tell. Sat, 17 May 2008 20:37:06 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#a54a55ff-617d-4e51-b648-5d3832bf3314 jana 2008-05-17T20:37:06Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#243730bf-a8d9-4295-9a00-d6cdb23f67c5 "Ugly" is a harsh term to describe another person, from where I'm sitting. Jana raised the level of the discussion with some excellent points. If you don't care for the teachings of an instructor, don't follow them. For example, I do not care for things that Mr. Bikram has to say, therefore I don't attend his classes. But teachers only meet us part of the way, and it's important to examine our reactions to them as well. What mirror are they holding up to us, particularly when we see something we don't like? If we just say that the teacher is horrible, then we learn nothing about ourselves. Which brought me back to the whole point of the question: I believe yoga classes (like many endeavors actually) can help with spiritual growth, if the student is willing to open their mind a bit. A few years ago you could have sat Pat Robertson in a room with Sri Swami Satchidananda himself, and I don't think any of his teachings would sink in because Pat Robertson is so closed off, especially to the idea of yoga (opening your mind to the devil and all that other nonsense). But if the student is open, there is much to learn, even if all the teacher really provides in terms of spiritual direction is 5 minutes in savasana, in those 5 minutes, the student can learn a great deal on their own. Sat, 17 May 2008 16:37:18 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#243730bf-a8d9-4295-9a00-d6cdb23f67c5 K 2008-05-17T16:37:18Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#e07e731a-2adc-4421-b546-286b20ceccd4 Its odd that you hear me saying you should wear burkas, and your man haters. I am no prude nor am I loose with my energy. Shiva Rea is an awesome, knowledgeable instructor, and marketer of which she herself is the product. My first teacher was a wonderful earthy goddess type: black leg hair, bushy armpits long thick dark hair, sweetest smile ever.( the type they never put in The Yoga Journal.) I use to swim in the ocean and dry off as I road my bike to class in my board shorts. I didnt think anything about my butt hanging out or that in some poses my package might be compromised. She said to me one class: "It may not bother you but as a yogi you have to be aware that it might distract others around you." It made perfect sense to me. There were some straight laced woman and some married woman in the class. they might be offended or stirred up by the sight. I didnt take it as Her trying to curtail my freedom as a man. It just taught me awareness and respect around peoples personal space, and their consciousness. So I started packing underwear when I came to class . Sat, 17 May 2008 02:15:01 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#e07e731a-2adc-4421-b546-286b20ceccd4 JEEVAN 2008-05-17T02:15:01Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#a9eb6287-974b-49fc-b2aa-9fada35862dc your reading some thing that I am not saying. Your hearing some harsh voice from your past meybe that has nothing to do with what I've written. Good luck. Sat, 17 May 2008 01:18:41 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#a9eb6287-974b-49fc-b2aa-9fada35862dc JEEVAN 2008-05-17T01:18:41Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#2845fa4b-ca8f-4ffc-9ffc-fa7a1305b496 Hmmm... I have taken several classes with Shiva Rea and really didn't perceive a whole lot of explicitly sexual energy. She comes across strong and powerful, beautiful and earthy and authentic - maybe even slightly maternal. But I definitely didn't sense any overt sexuality and the men in her class didn't seem particularly sexually distracted, that I noticed, at least. I am a straight woman and I have taken yoga with and from plenty of attractive men and was still able to get on with my practice. Fact is there are tons of distractions in our modern life, well at least there are in mine! The sexuality of our fellow humans is just one. Part of yoga for me is learning how to tune out those distractions. If I can only do that in a room of swamis dresses in long orange robes its not going to do me much good. However, I would agree that there is a difference between a true guru and a great asana teacher. I don't think Shiva Rea has ever claimed to be a guru. She does however impart a wisdom and grace that goes beyond being an exercise instructor. I am sure she is no Dalai Lama, but she offers a lot more that just being a sex symbol. I have personally seen people become derailed and distracted by guru worship as well. And one can find plenty of accounts of so called true gurus actually using "sex power" But the very best part is that each of us gets to choose our own teacher, our own guru, our own practice. If Shiva Rea's "hotness" factor prevents you from figuring out your own knot, you are free to seek you bliss where ever you want. And clearly you wisely have. Want all the women to wear loose tee shirts and baggy pants? the Sivananda Vedanta centers have great, affordable asana, meditation and yoga life style classes and more modest wear is explicitly part of the etiquette there. Its a big ole world out there, and maybe, just maybe, one person's state of bliss maybe another person's vanity fair. blessings all! Jana Fri, 16 May 2008 23:17:56 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#2845fa4b-ca8f-4ffc-9ffc-fa7a1305b496 jana 2008-05-16T23:17:56Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#e4c91f2a-6bc8-470d-bba9-1941968b8caf Agreed. I think it does a disservice to men to assume that a man can't see a naked woman as something other than a sex object. Fri, 16 May 2008 17:50:34 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#e4c91f2a-6bc8-470d-bba9-1941968b8caf Ellen 2008-05-16T17:50:34Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#6d6d3dfe-68b8-45b1-9bcb-d9095014c270 I must also point out that feminist does not equal man hater. In fact, I have great respect for men. I believe men are quite capable of seeing a naked woman and not losing control of their faculties. Some men are capable of seeing a woman as a person, and I know quite a few men like this in fact. I believe men quite capable of the spiritual growth it takes to see a woman's spirit and be able to see her as more than just the sum of feminine parts. Fri, 16 May 2008 17:35:13 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#6d6d3dfe-68b8-45b1-9bcb-d9095014c270 K 2008-05-16T17:35:13Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#f4818034-1669-497a-9ee1-d9df2b994d15 There is so much wrong with your comment that I can't even begin to approach it. You sound like you have a lot of problems with women that you need to deal with before you can have a rational discussion on the topic. I'm a yoga teacher. Some men probably think I'm hot. Does that mean I should teach in baggy sweats and a long-sleeved top? No. Because it's NOT MY PROBLEM if someone is attracted to me and that's distracting them during their practice. I don't USE my sexuality, and I don't squash it. It just isn't part of the equation between teacher and student. If a student finds me attractive, he or she needs to deal with it on their own, or find another teacher. I will not be made to feel responsible for another person's thoughts or desires. No woman should. Fri, 16 May 2008 17:27:29 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#f4818034-1669-497a-9ee1-d9df2b994d15 Ellen 2008-05-16T17:27:29Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#bab551fe-949b-4a92-8fe0-39207c189f6e First, feminism--a movement that pushed for things like women having the right to vote, equal pay for equal work, tougher laws on rape and domestic violence, getting marital rape declared illegal--is hardly an "ugly" thing as you see it. And no, I'm not a blond and have paid my own way for years thank you very much. That is what feminism is all about! Essentially, Jeevan, your argument that women should cover up sounds just like Islam to me: men cannot control their desires so women should therefore be so ashamed of their bodies that they should enshroud themselves head to toe. Why is it that women should be ashamed of themselves because men may be attracted to them? If we all share some essence of the divine, why are women's bodies shameful and not to be photographed, but men's bodies are perfectly acceptable and something to be photographed? Or do you think only men have the right to say they have a divine essence and women are merely the tools of satan bound to distract them? So if I follow your argument, my husband can bear his nipples, which are anatomically useless, merely decorative, but it's perfectly acceptable for him to display them in public. But if I take out a nipple to feed my baby, that's considered inappropriate and I am trying to exert some sort of sexual power over men by showing my vulnerability and I should only breastfeed when I'm in the company of all women. Give me a break. This is not the teaching of yoga which teaches us men's bodies are perfectly acceptable but women should hide themselves in shame. Yoga teaches us we should not be obsessed with the flesh because the flesh is merely a conduit for the truth, what is inside of us all. If you believe that we are so innately different, do you say "namaste" to women? If so, you are being a hypocrite because you do not really see that the light inside me is something that we share. You see me as repugnant and someone who should hide from your vision in shame. Perhaps you feel women have no place in yoga as well. Fri, 16 May 2008 16:32:53 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#bab551fe-949b-4a92-8fe0-39207c189f6e K 2008-05-16T16:32:53Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#4d52b274-0fcc-459e-ad29-84556e3d32ca I think it depends on the person and their purpose for the classes. It is all relevant. Fri, 16 May 2008 14:29:10 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#4d52b274-0fcc-459e-ad29-84556e3d32ca $item.owner.firstName 2008-05-16T14:29:10Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#357d06e9-26f9-4d6e-8a50-337630d23630 Feminism 101 rears its ugly head. She might be " celebrating the human form" by having the world look on her beautiful body but as a yoga teacher she should be aware that Men are going to think shes hot. But maybe its not the right thing to subject men to her "celebration." Should she stir that pot, is it the right thing? In the restaurant business I have seen over the years blond beauties like her never pay for drinks, always get in free to shows, never,unless dining alone ever pay for meals. Shiva Rea is famous first and foremost because she's beautiful. She is a marketing genius and has ridden that pony all the way to the bank. Nothing wrong with that. If it is a celebration it is of her Vanity. What you do ripples out and affects the world. A little short sighted for a Yogini wouldnt you say? In Feminism 101B you realize that men and women are different animals. You stop fighting every one who you think is telling you that you cant take your shirt off. You truly accept the beauty of the feminine form. The sheer power of feminine vulnerability. Naked does not always = sex. If your hanging out with all women maybe. Or if your boyfriend is androgynous. The "naked does not always = sex" quote I hear from women who dont really like sex or feel the loose their power when they become vulnerable during sex. Fri, 16 May 2008 08:43:39 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#357d06e9-26f9-4d6e-8a50-337630d23630 JEEVAN 2008-05-16T08:43:39Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#74f5736d-8b2c-4c9a-aec0-44819153f558 "The fact that she's topless automatically means she's trying to exert sexual power? What about honoring the human form? Naked does not always = sex. Men pose topless all the time." I think I made that argument in another discussion too. In Light on Yoga, Mr. Iyengar is topless in all the poses. Thu, 15 May 2008 17:49:32 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#74f5736d-8b2c-4c9a-aec0-44819153f558 K 2008-05-15T17:49:32Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#3251b07b-2bc3-4386-86f7-7aa44d41ebcc The fact that she's topless automatically means she's trying to exert sexual power? What about honoring the human form? Naked does not always = sex. Men pose topless all the time. Thu, 15 May 2008 17:23:52 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#3251b07b-2bc3-4386-86f7-7aa44d41ebcc Ellen 2008-05-15T17:23:52Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#5195d787-5d14-4f34-a9f2-12dbff73f92b So, if I follow your logic Jeevan, you are saying that because someone is a dance professional that they therefore cannot have a powerful inner life? What about the sufi mystics who perform whirling dervish dances? Are they not spiritual? Does that mean that only monks are capable of powerful spiritual lives? I also completely disagree that dancers need to be on a stage--dance can be a liberating endeavor and a powerful community builder for everyone not just professionals. Thu, 15 May 2008 15:45:07 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#5195d787-5d14-4f34-a9f2-12dbff73f92b K 2008-05-15T15:45:07Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#719531b4-9b52-4c54-86a3-5e8f18b0ef96 I began yoga asanas after I left the formal training of the guru. It has helped me assimilate into the various parts of my being the light I can and do access of my soul. That light needs to "wake down" into the other facets of our own jewel, our being. Yoga asanas, were an esoteric secret for thousands of years. They have an effect on the being on many levels. I like that Psyche pointed out that there is a difference bettween a true guru and a great asana instructor. My favorite example is Shiva Rea's spread in Vanity Fair where she is topless and wearing a thong doing a beautiful, technically perfect NATARANJASANA. When you watch a video of her class instruction shes an excellent instructor. And she is a genius marketer. Spiritual? I dont know but I do know that generally anyone with a powerful inner life would not be inclined to pose in Vanity Fair in such a state. Shes a dancer and dancers need to be on stage. Yoga classes have helped me immensely process out old traumas from my body and being, and I have come to the conclusion that it is all about Intent. Are you there to be seen? To use sex power on people? Or to figure out your own knot, to open fully to, to align with, to say fully YES to your own evolutionary momentum ? Thu, 15 May 2008 05:44:39 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#719531b4-9b52-4c54-86a3-5e8f18b0ef96 JEEVAN 2008-05-15T05:44:39Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#22da0a92-7bcb-42e9-8819-38ffc8e46ceb Cool, thanks for all your input guys, Estrella, In terms of using hatha yoga to purify your body as a first step to attaining liberation, how would you think of Amma's programs, where there is all sorts of junk food being sold, etc? Thu, 27 Mar 2008 14:03:38 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#22da0a92-7bcb-42e9-8819-38ffc8e46ceb $item.owner.firstName 2008-03-27T14:03:38Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#1d9f917d-c9ec-4bd9-9bdc-2adaee1f022c hello Briggi, even after the so-called shortcuts i think one needs to go back to get the basics of purification for long term benefits. There's no step that can be left out, esp. not such an essential one...infact i will put all of this into a research project. will be exciting love Eva Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:53:37 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#1d9f917d-c9ec-4bd9-9bdc-2adaee1f022c Estrella 2008-03-27T13:53:37Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#33fa2b48-a40d-4d19-9c1a-2afa6356483c ....and as well, I might add, Bhakti Yoga, and Tantric Yoga.... and probably 1000 other yogas yet to meet our consciousness with a name. Do your yoga Religiously. It's all good. Better the religion of Yoga than the yoga of religion. You need Hatha yoga as the path of purification... to cleanse the temple, the body... to make the vessel resonate with the divine...with higher message, and thus to receive it. There are those who chose shortcuts to the known path... those who choose extreme experience, or pain, or temporary drug-induced insanity, or deliberate huge humiliation... but in the end, the gradual, loving way by stages provides the most lasting rewards. BE content. Move forward happily. briggi! Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:41:20 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#33fa2b48-a40d-4d19-9c1a-2afa6356483c Briggi 2008-03-27T13:41:20Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#99fdedc0-00f6-49fb-8f32-553974154a89 Do Yoga Classes Help with Spiritual Growth? Hatha Yoga is the equation of HA(sun)(body)+THA(moon)(mind) But mere physical practice leads to mere physical identity. Whereas hatha yoga CAN work to tame the lower animal nature, it is only the prepatory stage to emotional and mental wellness and spiritual growth. It is the first step of an indepth journey. If it could do more master circus performers would be enlightened. Therefore chronological order of Yoga leads Hatha Yoga to Kriya Yoga, Raja Yoga, Samraja Yoga, Mahasamraja Yoga, Viraja Yoga, and Avadhutika Yoga. Thu, 27 Mar 2008 05:25:38 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#99fdedc0-00f6-49fb-8f32-553974154a89 ma i 2008-03-27T05:25:38Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#e607fc94-9e3b-4791-bee2-bf5fa1f28152 >A friend told me I was on a Self taught path, whatever that means. And all I could do was shudder inside at the thought of having to take that >much responsibility on myself for the things I want to learn and understand. I felt alone when I heard that. This insight is spiritual progress! A teacher can be anything or anyone who crosses your path at the right time to give you what you need to deepen your understanding and move forward. The time, uncertainty, aloneness, and empty space between these insights and teachers are the stuff out of which progress is made. It is what prepares you for the next teacher. My teacher inspired me to practice my yoga and to learn a way of life, his presence stirred my own spiritual energy, but he was "frugal," downright stingy, with spiritual advice and the sharing of "secrets." Honestly some people don't need a teacher to hold their hand. More often than not those that do develop a strong faith, loyalty and love in their teacher and never move beyond that. The truly motivated take what they need and find their own way. Buddha did. Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:16:07 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#e607fc94-9e3b-4791-bee2-bf5fa1f28152 $item.owner.firstName 2008-03-24T13:16:07Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#030eb1f7-c8d2-433d-9d8b-4d7de52f9fd6 Seems that whatever we happen to resonate with ultimately charts the direction of our path. I'm not so sure if we have any control over what makes us resonate, though it seems that this frequency changes for each of us over time, and when it does - our direction changes. We begin to assess life differently, new people appear and we begin to involve ourselves in new and different activities. Maybe you're just going through a gestation period of sorts, a period of integration, preparation for that which will come. Mon, 24 Mar 2008 09:51:32 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#030eb1f7-c8d2-433d-9d8b-4d7de52f9fd6 Charles 2008-03-24T09:51:32Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#35348a77-0a0e-4d03-8503-976d73179aa0 I think Life, and everything in it including Yoga Classes, helps with Spiritual growth if I let it. The site I went to broke information down in percentages relating to Spiritual growth, which I find hard to read. Because for me, Spiritual growth cannot be measured in numbers or percentages by equipment or another's perception. I think that steered me away from reading anymore. I've looked for a teacher for a long time. I haven't found one, maybe because I am not ready and perhaps because I'm not meant to be taught formally in this life. A friend told me I was on a Self taught path, whatever that means. And all I could do was shudder inside at the thought of having to take that much responsibility on myself for the things I want to learn and understand. I felt alone when I heard that. I'm hoping my friend is nuts ; ) Katrina Mon, 24 Mar 2008 07:43:46 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#35348a77-0a0e-4d03-8503-976d73179aa0 Katrina 2008-03-24T07:43:46Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#8dfaed1f-71ba-402f-a0d9-0d8a20a4873f "The peer pressure of a group class can definitely inspire me to work harder on poses that are hard for me." Though I've found that this can be both a blessing and a curse ;-) Mon, 24 Mar 2008 04:33:48 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#8dfaed1f-71ba-402f-a0d9-0d8a20a4873f Charles 2008-03-24T04:33:48Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#90bb8780-db17-4bd1-b6f0-1aea066346fd Wow! That's awesome..I don't claim to know of many lamas in the Himalayian foothills, so I'll just leave that knowing to my imagination :) Mon, 24 Mar 2008 04:30:37 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#90bb8780-db17-4bd1-b6f0-1aea066346fd $item.owner.firstName 2008-03-24T04:30:37Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#169845af-8f36-4386-a3f9-b9e775337735 What a wonderful experience! It sounds like something out of a movie. Mon, 24 Mar 2008 03:02:27 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#169845af-8f36-4386-a3f9-b9e775337735 $item.owner.firstName 2008-03-24T03:02:27Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#4b53ecd9-798e-4220-9470-9a728a4d6af4 I envy your living in NYC. In November I visited for the first time. Stayed four days and just loved it. I hope to visit again soon. Go next time in the summer or fall maybe. I do enjoy yoga in groups sometimes. Seminars can be a lot of fun. My practice has been pretty intense for a couple years now. It's probably time for me to lighten up a bit. :-) I'd like to get better at astanga. The peer pressure of a group class can definitely inspire me to work harder on poses that are hard for me. Mon, 24 Mar 2008 02:57:33 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#4b53ecd9-798e-4220-9470-9a728a4d6af4 $item.owner.firstName 2008-03-24T02:57:33Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#44176001-c7e8-4059-82cb-a002b66be491 I pretty much feel the same way and find I can still learn a great deal even from inexperienced yoga teachers. We can be profoundly influenced by what others tell us and by expectations, titles, notoriety, and by people who have gained large followings. When I was a young whipper-snapper I spent time exploring and searching in the Himalayan foothills. I met one fellow, a lama, at a small monastery in a rather remote region. He was curious and kind and most hospitable and we spent a lot of time speaking and sharing ideas. As it turned out, he assisted me with one of my objectives. I liked him a great deal, though he was not a person I would have considered as a teacher - he just seemed like a nice person. It was not until sometime later that I found out who he really was, someone I'm sure everyone reading this thread would know by name. Had I previously known, I'm certain the entire exchange between us would have been different - I would have most likely been very self-conscious, probably just melted into a puddle. What was interesting was that it clearly was not a priority for him to let me know who he was. In retrospect, I can now see that such behavior can tell a lot about a person. Mon, 24 Mar 2008 02:45:19 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#44176001-c7e8-4059-82cb-a002b66be491 Charles 2008-03-24T02:45:19Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#19979451-0234-443e-a088-ad681f920124 I havn't reached that level of motivation yet with my practice, as I still benefit from the group environment. I am very lucky to have a great hatha yoga teacher here in NYC. His name is Dharma Mitra, so far the only real school of yoga I have been to in the city. I have yet to check out astanga yoga shala or Eddie Stern's in Soho. Mon, 24 Mar 2008 02:11:28 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#19979451-0234-443e-a088-ad681f920124 $item.owner.firstName 2008-03-24T02:11:28Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#b83e7a77-93e5-4a84-8e0e-b349340ab106 A true master or guru will possess, to an extraordinary degree, two qualities that distinguish them from others: exceptional energetic/spiritual presence and genuine humility. Once these qualities have been experienced by a student the difference from that moment on is obvious. After two years I developed a personal practice and took less and less formal classes. Now I am content with doing yoga on my own and checking in with my teacher for additional instruction and correction. Mon, 24 Mar 2008 01:52:00 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#b83e7a77-93e5-4a84-8e0e-b349340ab106 $item.owner.firstName 2008-03-24T01:52:00Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#5480fbd8-1254-4ab9-a45f-984561b7d3ed Psyche, I know what you mean about yoga teachers with a following. I used to think that I could only practice yoga if an enlightened teacher were teaching the class, but out of ignorance I was comparing them to my Satguru. I was always disappointed, but now can embrace the practice esepcially when they quote the sutras or other scripture or source of knowledge. As long as the class suits my physical level, I am content because I just chant my mantra and focus inward. Sun, 23 Mar 2008 23:41:12 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#5480fbd8-1254-4ab9-a45f-984561b7d3ed $item.owner.firstName 2008-03-23T23:41:12Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#6fe0bd59-355c-4500-842b-f1ffffb7f65d If you can't tell the difference then there's really little to worry about. Sun, 23 Mar 2008 21:22:46 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#6fe0bd59-355c-4500-842b-f1ffffb7f65d Charles 2008-03-23T21:22:46Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#e9b953e3-31fc-465b-bed2-ada346a6e267 I trained in Montana with Taoist Master Paulie Zink. Sun, 23 Mar 2008 20:13:22 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#e9b953e3-31fc-465b-bed2-ada346a6e267 $item.owner.firstName 2008-03-23T20:13:22Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#9683da7e-91f6-4186-bb42-97b4abb80bc0 Psyche, Where did you do your yoga training? Sat, 22 Mar 2008 16:37:56 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#9683da7e-91f6-4186-bb42-97b4abb80bc0 $item.owner.firstName 2008-03-22T16:37:56Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#7350c75a-1720-4b2b-adcb-a3feb3489792 For some people yoga classes can be the beginning of spiritual growth, but guidance is needed as one advances. Most yoga classes are taught by yoga teachers, not Masters or gurus. Most students, though not all, in order to make serious progress spiritually, require the assistance of someone truly accomplished. Such people are hard to find and do not have large public followings. Perhaps this explains why it is so hard for most students of yoga to tell the difference between a highly skilled teacher and a spiritual master. Sat, 22 Mar 2008 16:20:06 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#7350c75a-1720-4b2b-adcb-a3feb3489792 $item.owner.firstName 2008-03-22T16:20:06Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#1d805892-7e2f-42fd-af64-a9eb109e5241 any physical exercise/exertion/focused effort makes for spiritual growth but yeah I think yoga especially but try going for a really long walk sometime . I mean like all day ...or a really long bicycle ride ...(50 miles or MORE ) then see how you feel the rest of the day/night and days after... Sat, 22 Mar 2008 00:10:24 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#1d805892-7e2f-42fd-af64-a9eb109e5241 SynerGy 2008-03-22T00:10:24Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#2ba35d3d-eac0-47ba-ab66-663b8845f939 "Do Yoga Classes Help with Spiritual Growth?" They can and do but I think they aren't the be-all, end-all of a spiritual journey. ~V~ Fri, 21 Mar 2008 19:35:35 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#2ba35d3d-eac0-47ba-ab66-663b8845f939 $item.owner.firstName 2008-03-21T19:35:35Z http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#113b31ac-e39e-4e98-8d06-364ed8362d76 An interesting and amazing resource for those serious sadhaks. Perhaps you choose not to believe with everything on this site, but nonetheless some good resources. Enjoy! http://spiritualresearchfoundation.org/aboutspiritualresearch/Yoga_Classes_Spiritual_growth.php Fri, 21 Mar 2008 19:27:59 GMT http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/78304d97-0fed-40cf-8462-968cf55c018e#113b31ac-e39e-4e98-8d06-364ed8362d76 $item.owner.firstName 2008-03-21T19:27:59Z