Hi. Currently I practice yoga (dhyana) without an embodied guru. (Yes, I know, "guru is within", "guru is atman", etc -- but let's not mince words. I'm referring to gurus as in India, Tibet, and elsewhere).
From my reading and discussions with people, the period of tha late 1960s to the present has given Westerners the opportunity to get familiar with gurus to some extent - including some of the pitfalls of the personal guru-disciple relationship. And don't get the notion that I'm implying all gurus who have come to the West or taught Western devotees in the East are exploiters, rascals, or anything like that.
I'm posting this just so people can exchange feelings, thoughts, and opinions on this topic of "guru versus no-guru".
Namaste,
Tanemon
From my reading and discussions with people, the period of tha late 1960s to the present has given Westerners the opportunity to get familiar with gurus to some extent - including some of the pitfalls of the personal guru-disciple relationship. And don't get the notion that I'm implying all gurus who have come to the West or taught Western devotees in the East are exploiters, rascals, or anything like that.
I'm posting this just so people can exchange feelings, thoughts, and opinions on this topic of "guru versus no-guru".
Namaste,
Tanemon
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Unsu...
Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Wed, March 19, 2008 - 7:51 AMA personal guru relationship can turn your whole life upside down, especially if you take on an avatar. Be careful what you seek! -
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Wed, March 19, 2008 - 8:00 AMSometimes the best gurus are people who would never even call themselves gurus. If you pay attention and open your mind to the world beyond strictly people who practice yoga, you can find people who have great things to teach you everywhere. -
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Wed, March 19, 2008 - 8:50 AMIt is every good teacher's wish to see their students surpass them with less effort than it took them. It is incumbent upon the guru to show you their weakness and let their ego die in front of you. If you see this you know you are the only vessel than can hold your teaching and that the guru is only a well polished mirror. -
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 1:42 AMIf you can't go there yourself then no one can help you. -
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Sun, March 30, 2008 - 10:19 PM"Real compassion kicks butt and takes names, and it is not pleasant on certain days. If you are not ready for this fire, then find a new-age, sweetness-and-light, soft-speaking, perpetually smiling teacher, and learn to re-label your ego with spiritual sounding terms. But stay away from those that practice real compassion, because they will fry your ass, my friend."
Ken Wilbur -
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 7:35 AMVerseau, you're polluting my sacred space with negative energy. I need to go find some transformational energy now so that I can get rebirth and find my authentic self. -
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 9:49 AMLOL Kimberlee!
Verseau's compassion is gonna kick your sacred space's a#$. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 10:12 AMOm LotusBlossom:
Let the sacred bloom within you. Use stinky fertilizer as needed.
Plant your new flower on the top of a mountain
Live in the Sun.
(organically sweetened kissies for everyone)
~V~ -
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 10:14 AM -
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 1:23 PMReminds me of the answer to the koan:
What's the sound of one hand clapping?
Answer:
Me bitch slapping you to enlightenment!
;D
Baba Mike -
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 2:22 PMlol
~V~
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 2:56 PMEnlightenment through S&M. Hmm...
Baba Mike, I believe I saw someone advertising a workshop on this already. -
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 2:58 PMTantric BDSM Certification for Enlightenment
Only $9,999.99
Order yours today!
:P
~V~
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Wed, April 2, 2008 - 8:58 AMVerseau,
My sentiments exactly. The real deal is not fun and new age games, it's real, it's raw and it takes no prisoners. Chances are when you actually go through the crucible you won't even recognize who you used to be, and you'll find yourself thanking those that lit the fire for doing so.
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 11:13 PMIm sorry. let me clarify.
You can learn to be a concert pianist by yourself. It is possible.
but having a teacher, especially one of inner achievement, in the beginning makes it so much more streamlined. We all know there are infinite ways to run games on ourselves. -
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 12:29 PMYes but, you still have to do it yourself, the teacher is a tool not the path itself.
The things I've had the deepest learning experiences in I've gone to myself or with a teacher who doesn't know they are a teacher. -
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Tue, April 1, 2008 - 10:00 PMGreat point Marty. Seems like many of the great lessons I've learned were from people that just popped into my life and for whatever reason - held a mirror up in front of me. -
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Wed, April 2, 2008 - 8:00 AM"Yes but, you still have to do it yourself, the teacher is a tool not the path itself. "
Excellent point, but so many people don't have the inclination to do the work and there are teachers who feed on that notion. Some want spirituality spoonfed to them. The marvelous thing about the yoga sutras for me is that they contain seeds of wisdom, but it's really up to the practitioner to study these in depth and try to make sense of it all. It's very much unlike books like the Qur'an, which dictate everything about your life, including mundane daily activities. Some yoga teachers have taken the same approach with their teaching and students are eating this up. For example, instead of really analyzing the concept of ahimsa, students are told that the only way to be a good little yogi is to be a vegan. The students then comply without question. This process lacks the very critical step of the student taking in their teacher's interpretation of ahimsa, seeking out others, and then spending a good deal of time soul-searching to determine if this interpretation holds truth for them. -
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Wed, April 2, 2008 - 9:13 AMKimberlee - "So many people don't have the inclination to do the work and there are teachers who feed on that notion. Some want spirituality spoonfed to them."
Yes, and some people are just looking to feel 'good' rather than to be more "awake" or conscious (not, of course, that the two are mutually exclusive). People seek out teachers for many reasons that range from a desire to learn what the teacher/lesson has to offer to wanting a parental figure, just as people seek out activities designated as "spiritual" for many reasons. And, of course, these reasons can change over time. I guess, in many ways, the question becomes whether one is a student or a follower. -
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Wed, April 2, 2008 - 12:22 PMFifi,
I agree that yoga does meet you where you need to be and if someone goes to a yoga class just because it helps them sleep better at night, I have no problem with that.
It's when students seek out spiritual guidance from the teacher that this issue arises. However, I also see yoga teachers making some wild claims (especially about medical advice--but that's a whole other topic) and assert authority and reject any challenges to that authority.
I just find the whole "do exactly as I say and never question me" attitude rather dangerous--not just for yoga but for society in general.
It's like people want a mom who tells them to do something and if the child wonders why all the mom (or dad of course) can say is "Because I said so." -
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Wed, April 2, 2008 - 2:09 PMKimberlee - "I just find the whole "do exactly as I say and never question me" attitude rather dangerous--not just for yoga but for society in general."
I agree totally with you on this and I've also witnessed the occasional yoga teacher giving out incredibly misinformed medical advice or promote physical practices that are potentially quite damaging in the long term. But then I'm an advocate of independent, critical thought (not "negative" but critical, which people seem to get the two confused a lot) and not looking for a god to take responsibility for me (in the flesh or otherwise). I understand that others are different and can have different needs, much as it can break my heart to see people being exploited through these very needs. But what can one do really? Other than point out that the emperor's naked and his weiner is hanging out. -
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Thu, April 3, 2008 - 8:56 AMin the press, there is more and more news about how yoga wrecks your knees and other joints........
concerning ...
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Thu, April 3, 2008 - 9:08 AMZniGma - I don't think it's most forms of yoga per se that are problematic, rather uniformed teachers who assume that yoga is somehow beyond the basic laws of the physical and who then push people (or allow them) to engage in dangerous practices. Any form of exercise performed incorrectly and without proper attention can be hard on the joints. There are, of course, some fantastic yoga teachers out there who really know what they're doing and teach what is and isn't a safe practice, and who take into account the many variations in body type and flexibility that exist rather than promoting what is, for many, an unrealistic ideal. Telling people they're not perfect enough is a very profitable industry - whether you're selling cosmetics or some form of ethereal perfected state of being.
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Wed, March 19, 2008 - 11:32 AMI agree with Kimberlee. The person that removes the addiction of attachment is wherever you see your self in others! That manifestation of your self in others may be everywhere or just in one person. Your life spark provides you whatever you need to understand that self. The aware self, silent and still self is eternal. In an instant you can stop trying to manipulate your external world and just realize that self within you. Then you'll start seeing that self everywhere in everything.
:D
Across whatever distance, I send my love,
Baba Mike -
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Wed, March 19, 2008 - 12:16 PMI totally disagree with Kimberlee. I think it's important to distinguish between 'guru' and 'teacher'. I agree with Kimberlee that sometimes (often, even) the best teachers are people who don't think of themselves as such, and that you can learn amazing things from anyone and any situation.
But to equate that with a guru is an egregious mistake. The nature of the guru-disciple relationship is far deeper and more profound than that, and is, in my opinion, absolutely necessary to someone who is on the yogic path. It is true that some people, e.g. Ramana Maharshi, can achieve enlightenment spontaneously and without a guru, but those people are exceedingly few and far between. There are thousands of people, if not millions, I am sure, in the west who have adopted the 'everything is your guru' philosophy, yet how many of them are enlightened? I would guess the number is pretty damn close to zero, if not actually zero.
While I agree with Bhakti who wrote above that a guru-disciple relationship can turn your life upside down, I do not think that is a reason to avoid such a relationship. Indeed, it is the entire GOAL of said relationship to turn your life upside down. Of course, there is a difference between turning your life upside down in a way that leads to growth and true spiritual development, and turning your life upside down in a way that leads to pain and ruin. So yes, before you enter such a relationship, choose wisely.
I am of the opinion that what passes for "yoga" in the west is mostly a pale imitation of what yoga is supposed to be, and what is *could* be, even in the modern western world. I think a large part of this "dumbing down" of yoga is due to this kind of new-agey, woo-woo, "everything is your guru" attitude.
A far more thorough and well-written argument than mine can be found here, in the magazine that Bihar School of Yoga puts out:
www.yogamag.net/archives/1...uwest.shtml
The article was written by my guru, Dharmanidhi Sarasvati
Peace
Kevin
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Wed, March 19, 2008 - 12:39 PMThe prevalence of Gurus in Indian culture is far, far less prominent than anyone seems to realize.
I'm curious about the naivete of Americans in projecting everything unto "them" and everything "other." It seems to stem from a complete dissatisfaction with who and how we are in this country....without actually bothering to take the time to examine and articulate precisely who and how we are. There is no consistent discourse that is meaningful about these issues in this country.
So often it appears to be just another commodified and sterilized something to fill in that hole of emptiness of the meaninglessness that permeates much of our experience in this country.
I think we're going about addressing our issues in the wrong way. Simply affecting "Eastern" or watching simplistic tripe like "The Secret" is probably not going to do the trick.
But we are collectively heading slowly and surely toward something big and profound aren't we? I guess it's how you take your journey that matters, regardless of what others might think or are doing themselves.
peace,
~V~ -
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Wed, March 19, 2008 - 1:01 PMThere have been a whole host of wigglers that have come from India, China, Tibet etc. You swing a dead cat and you'll find someone to provide you patent pending answers that will surely make your hair bouncier, your plates shinier, and you car get better gas mileage.
Even if you do find someone to wear the huge Poobah hat, and tell you to follow your breath for half of your income for the rest of your life. It still remains up to you to either do it or lip service it!
All methods work and at the same time don't work! You're the crucible that will decide! If it works for you then, great! Harshing on someone else's method won't help you reach whatever you feel is enlightenment/satisfaction/safety! It'll only maintain the inner pissed off child you've been carrying around for most of your life rhetorically.
And it's not just the U.S., that's been ripped off, lied to, stolen from by these con men and women. Every human on the planet knows of some other spiritual nutjob that will provide them trite cute answers. They just slap on the tin foil hat with the propeller and away they go!
I find just being still, silent and aware works for me! And drawing cartoons to vent my spleen! NeverBeFiredAgain.blogspot.com
:D
Who loves ya baby?
Baba Mike
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Unsu...
Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Wed, March 19, 2008 - 2:16 PMBaba,
Unfortunately there are soo many con artists out there posing as enlightened being who will rip off any naive aspirant. I'm not saying yay or nay to receiving Guru initiation, it's all up to the individual. I know many many beautiful compassionate spiritual people who have not received initiation and who think I'm crazy hahaha.
But, a true Guru with real siddhis can take you on a spiritual journey beyond your imagination and beyond your mind...can bring you to the brink of insanity just so you can see the insane workings of your mind and ego which are illusion or maya. Sometimes I wish I never took mantra initiation because it's easier to have taken the "blue pill" But all in all, at some point, the soul craves more and eventually thirsts to go beyond the workings of maya and into the light. To true understanding of the soul and Atman....
As I stumble around in the dark with shades on,
Bhakti
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Unsu...
Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Wed, March 19, 2008 - 2:04 PMKevin, that was well said! I didn't mean to imply that one should not take on a guru, though. It's just that the path of ego anihilation is a very hard one, and should not be taken lightly. For some, it can be very traumatic....I speak from experience.
"I am of the opinion that what passes for "yoga" in the west is mostly a pale imitation of what yoga is supposed to be, and what is *could* be, even in the modern western world. I think a large part of this "dumbing down" of yoga is due to this kind of new-agey, woo-woo, "everything is your guru" attitude."
Yes, it's amazing how westerner's have taken this attitude...it really doesn't mean anything. Kinda like if it feels good, then do it. No matter if it's right or wrong...very arrogant and ignorant. Hmmm...what flavor of God do I try today?LOL
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Wed, March 19, 2008 - 12:32 PMa guide not a guru ...
YOU are your best guru ...
"place no head above your own"
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Wed, March 19, 2008 - 12:37 PMcase in point . . .
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Wed, March 19, 2008 - 12:58 PMi've got your guru *right here*
8^D
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 2:04 PM -
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 3:22 PMHumans have a curious need to "do" something to be spiritual. Before they came to this life they were void. While they're here they feel void. When they leave, they return to the void. Emptiness is form and form is emptiness. All things and events rise from stillness, silence and awareness. And all things return.
Nice books! On a cold day they're great to start a fire with to stay warm and snuggle up to someone you love!
:D
Across whatever distance, I send my love,
Baba Mike -
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Unsu...
Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 3:29 PMBaba,
God is something that must be experienced to be believed. You are blessed to not need a guru to find happiness, may your good fortune continue,
In love and light -
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 5:54 PMGuru Quote of the Day:
"Christ on a pony...my head is going to explode!"
~V~
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Sat, March 22, 2008 - 7:38 AMEach time you look in the mirror Bhakti, you're seeing the face of your Guru looking back!
;)
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Unsu...
Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Sat, March 22, 2008 - 8:35 AMThat's a very western "new age" approach, and very ignorant. But, if it works for you, then keep to it. However, I'm aware of my ignorance and depend on Guru/God to lead me to realization.
I used to believe as you do, that the guru lives inside me blah blah blah, according to the rhetoric that I hear from most Western Yoga teachers. But finally I awoke to realize that I know nothing, that there is an immense power far greater than any of us can ever imagine that controls everything, Divine will. There are highly evolved beings from higher planes of existance who have incarnated here on Earth to raise our conciousness and lead us toward realizing our true selves, our oneness with God.
We can say that know all about this because of what we've read or heard from yoga class, but this is merely our intellectual understanding. True understanding comes from direct experinece, and only a Sadguru can lead us to that direct experinece with God. With that said, I do know people who have had direct experiences with God Himself without the help of a Sadguru in the body. I don't know why that is, but the ways of God are unknown.
I pray that you be removed from your ignorance, and that you may stop trying to mislead others.
In Divine Understanding,
Bhakti
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Sat, March 22, 2008 - 9:30 AMWell, your statement of: "I don't know why that is, but the ways of God are unknown." speaks volumes about everything you said previous to that statement!
Sorry my observation made you feel threatened. Truth usually has that effect!
:D
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Unsu...
Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Sat, March 22, 2008 - 9:41 AMYour truth or God's truth? -
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Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Sat, March 22, 2008 - 9:43 AMMaybe that's where your having the problem thinking that truth is not just truth.
:D -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Your thoughts on Guru versus no-Guru
Sun, March 23, 2008 - 9:06 AMHow I judge on whether or not someone is a guru is their radiance and how they make people around them feel. A guru is not necessarily someone who can put their feet behind their head, go into full scorpion on a whim and whip you into submission by making you feel very small and worthless. And I truly believe that a guru does not have to be a yoga teacher.
The Dalai Lama, for example, is what I consider a real guru. He not only radiates light and joy, he also lifts the spirits of people around him. And I highly doubt he is registered with the Yoga Alliance.
One of my gurus/guides/teachers whatever semantics best fits, who had a great impact on my journey, was a soft-spoken yet very strong office manager from Haiti who opened my mind to interpretations of Catholicism not because he forced them on me, but because he had such a wonderful presence I sought his wisdom. He had a profound influence on my examination of my own beliefs.
I don't share the view that we humans are so fragile we need our hands held as we explore our spirituality. In yoga we have direct access to the sutras, unlike the Catholic view that priests need to interpret the bible for the laypeople because laypeople cannot be trusted to understand. Yes, it is valuable to have someone you trust to help guide you, but at the end of the day, you have to do your own study and reflection. Blindly following the words of someone else without questioning or investigating for yourself is foolish, and against the very nature of swadhyaya.
I have also found that there are people who have never read the sutras yet embody the spirit of ahimsa. My point is that if you open your eyes to the world around you, you will find role models who embody the te
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