Tribe.net. Local Connections Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#7917aa7b-45f9-4479-ae22-ae4502b8cfb4 2009-06-12T02:26:15Z 2009-06-12T02:26:15Z

I looked into a plot of land to plant, but I don't have the time this year. Thinking about next year.

Sam 2009-06-12T02:26:15Z Tanemon http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#09589eef-4fd0-4f81-a364-bbd4b1f9ad7d 2009-06-10T17:56:03Z 2009-06-10T17:56:03Z

" Plants are the higher intelligence. To meditate is to connect with that. " Yeah, well it's spring. The leaves are out and plants are growing. Anyone had any interesting experiences?

Tanemon 2009-06-10T17:56:03Z Mark http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#2c348c02-0908-46e5-8b7e-ce0cf1a29b16 2009-04-21T12:20:22Z 2009-04-21T12:20:22Z

'Secret Life of Plants' by C. Bird

Mark 2009-04-21T12:20:22Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#cd7be82b-54be-4900-87de-f5d696b93a62 2009-03-10T01:02:20Z 2009-03-10T01:02:20Z

I ran across a rattlesnake once. It was definitely communicating, but not exactly sociable.

Sam 2009-03-10T01:02:20Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#7619fdb1-4553-4be2-8cc8-6390f931c09b 2009-03-09T01:19:48Z 2009-03-09T01:19:48Z

Ever wish that you could delete one of your posts?

Sam 2009-03-09T01:19:48Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#b5734e3b-6bad-4726-9227-2dfb0e5d4230 2009-03-09T01:18:32Z 2009-03-09T01:18:32Z

Synergy, No. Why do you ask? Sam

Sam 2009-03-09T01:18:32Z hyperion http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#bd10082b-46a8-48c1-9786-b10dceb4fda6 2009-03-08T03:05:38Z 2009-03-08T03:05:38Z

Plants are the higher intelligence. To meditate is to connect with that. The tree asana is archetypal.

hyperion 2009-03-08T03:05:38Z SynerGy http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#3a25c742-efab-487e-b595-4c6437c4142a 2009-03-07T21:11:09Z 2009-03-07T21:11:09Z

ever have an encounter with a black bear ?

SynerGy 2009-03-07T21:11:09Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#3ca354cb-a90b-46e6-85af-b41b47ff8bb8 2009-03-07T05:24:05Z 2009-03-07T05:24:05Z

In my experience its rare for wild animals to attempt to communicate with humans, with the possible exception of birds.

Sam 2009-03-07T05:24:05Z deZengo http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#161221c9-9d61-4278-852b-a65eecc10587 2009-03-04T05:04:35Z 2009-03-04T05:04:35Z

Greetings... I briefly scanned the responses - so I do not want to waste your time or duplicate information. My own experience with plants / animals / insects / even the unseen but felt forces of nature such as wind...rain... are full of life / energy / and often do have something to share or teach. I love the discussion and would like to contribute more in depth, but for tonight :: I only have enough time to say this :: When we stop...and listen not just with our ears...but with our being we can pick up the signals from all things created. Rocks / trees / dragon flies / grasshoppers / birds have been curious enough about "us" to take a moment and investigate that thing called "human(s)." Especially with the dragonflies, who will come back each year to the same spot we first met. They will sit and observe me ... observing them. They appear to communicate with rapid head movements to the left / right and up | down. They have hitched rides on my shoulder and peacefully existed as I did my work. They are so smart and I had NO idea. The Dying DragonFly One day I came out of the gym, after some yoga and conversation with some wonderful little ole ladies! I looked down and saw an injured dragonfly and did not want it to get stepped. There is no dignity in dying like that - so I picked the little fella up and relocated it to a more secluded spot so that it could die in peace and without fear. Just the way I would prefer. When I tried to put the insect down - it would not let go. I thought that it's little claws had just gotten stuck, so I helped it gently unattach itself from my hand. I talked to it...prayed for it....and wished it well as it passes into the after life. As I stood up to walk away the little dragon fly shot out a string that was similiar to what you see from a spider, a web / sticky / string like substance. It attached itself to my leg - so that when I moved...it came with me. I thought that was a sign that it preferred to die in the woods where the plants / animals are loved and cared for. All the way down the mountain it held onto life - till I could put it in the "make shift" outdoor worship - sanctuary I have. I feed the birds, make my offering and pray while I do yoga or walk or pick up sticks.. etc.. It is my "happy place" that I went to while going through cancer & all that fun stuff. So, it is a very sacred special spot to me. The next day, the little dragon fly had indeed passed on from this world to the next and I felt very special that I had been witness to something I had never before heard of or experienced. Blessings to you each as you continue the journey - the lessons - the experience of communion with all that is GO(o)D!

deZengo 2009-03-04T05:04:35Z Katrina http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#d54811be-7ae7-448a-ab10-2510007bba9f 2009-01-31T15:31:48Z 2009-01-31T15:31:48Z

MAKE THE TIME SAM...Avalia'a due in April..just when I want to start planting, alas, I'm determined however to make sure I have a garden.. I'll have a newborn in a sling swinging a hoe with me, if I have to : )

Katrina 2009-01-31T15:31:48Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#b1d0e6d1-209f-41e7-a721-d228484a308c 2009-01-31T14:44:29Z 2009-01-31T14:44:29Z

I'm thinking of doing some planting this spring, but I'm not sure I'm going to have time.

Sam 2009-01-31T14:44:29Z Tanemon http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#8a750c6d-ad51-4f65-80ed-bf423dbb8ed7 2009-01-24T19:06:10Z 2009-01-24T19:06:10Z

The whole discussion, to this point, makes me wonder if anyone reading this thread knows of some deliberate experiments going on concerning plant communication. By "experiments" I don't necessarily mean projects carried out by universities or formal laboratories - though it could include that kind of project. The experimental side is interesting to me, even though I myself am just an unpretentious nature-lover and long-time organic gardener. But my interests are broad. So, I'd like to encourage more posting about a couple of avenues: People's personal stories (your own sensitivities & experiences)... and... Stories of more deliberate experimentation over time (could be over a gardening season, or a year, or several years... or whatever).

Tanemon 2009-01-24T19:06:10Z Katrina http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#9d56228d-95fb-4e19-b168-753d102fc099 2009-01-01T18:02:46Z 2009-01-01T18:02:46Z

Sam, I think, maybe I understand what you're saying a little better now. You don't strike me as the type of person that is comfortable leaving loose threads of thought unwound. They can tend to nag at the brain.. especially in the middle of the night : ) Thank you for writing, I'm not a judge of anyone but I think what you wrote is fair. K

Katrina 2009-01-01T18:02:46Z Jav http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#c2a84c94-bac6-4d18-9d24-317ca77bad8b 2009-01-01T17:59:51Z 2009-01-01T17:59:51Z

"It will be interesting to see if Jav can establish his creds on the basis of experience. " LOL! I need to establish "creds" with you.............uuuuuuh, why? This conversation is done on my end. Good luck with your projections Sam. :)

Jav 2009-01-01T17:59:51Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#83a3dded-0255-419d-8026-c80a64fd81f5 2009-01-01T12:54:10Z 2009-01-01T12:54:10Z

Katrina, I start out this early New Year's morning with some vexation left over form 2008, and I think a better explanation of my response to Jav is in order. Last year, Jav started out with a question: "Why is human communication the measuring stick for all communication?" This question was supposed to be the rationale for something that he disagreed with. Anyway, I ansered the question with two examples of non-human communication that Tanemon had provided. Jav simply dismissed that, saying that we're still using human parameters to understand communication. To me this is bs. Jav did not provide any rational justification or discussion of what he believes are the correct parameters to use. Next Jav suggests to me that maybe there are things like ESP that might work. What did he think I was talking about when I wrote things like, "The crux of the problem is how do we sense energetic connection" or "assuming we have found a "port" or frequency on which a plant can broadcast or listen"? Lately Jav has revealed that he thinks I'm some kind of dinosaur. I think this is precisely the problem. Jav is not talking to me, he's talking to the box he has put me into. This suggests to me that Jav needs to work on his communication skills. Yes, I am a little frustrated with Jav, although I have to admit that a couple of these posts were done late at night when I was tired and a little short tempered. As for being an intelligent elitist, that is what I try to avoid, but I think I'm flattered. It will be interesting to see if Jav can establish his creds on the basis of experience. Sam

Sam 2009-01-01T12:54:10Z Katrina http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#dd710d83-a6f0-4dd9-ad56-b8a145e7f9e9 2009-01-01T04:50:04Z 2009-01-01T04:50:04Z

Sam, When reading your communications, I often perceive tones of an intelligent elitist who assumes, before even engaging, that other people don't understand or can't comprehend what he's saying. Makes communicating mute. This is simply my intrinsic feeling when I read through many posts which include you. I think you're incredibly intelligent with an ability to probe into theologies micro-topics but it seems like you're frustrated when communicating sometimes. "If Jav had actually read what I wrote, he might have realized that I don't necessarily disagree with him."

Katrina 2009-01-01T04:50:04Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#8dbe05e4-3939-4cd9-a650-bc06f4a0ce7f 2009-01-01T03:11:02Z 2009-01-01T03:11:02Z

Jav, Since you seem to have knowledge and expertise in the area, why not share some of your experiences? Sam

Sam 2009-01-01T03:11:02Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#22d7eb50-e106-40f4-952a-c44915acf99e 2009-01-01T02:13:23Z 2009-01-01T02:13:23Z

Cynthia, "I am curious why you have read that tone into what Jav has said" Jav's objections like "still using our human parameters to understand communication" and "superimposing our definition of communication onto nature.", and "when you are a hammer everything looks like a nail." all strike me as toal bs. If Jav had actually read what I wrote, he might have realized that I don't necessarily disagree with him. Sam

Sam 2009-01-01T02:13:23Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#40e2a097-6b71-4338-a690-cb529f8f07f3 2009-01-01T01:48:47Z 2009-01-01T01:48:47Z

Katrina "that was a downright shitty Jab at Jav." If Jav detected a note of ridicule, then he finally understood something that I wrote. I knew I'd take some heat for this. Sam

Sam 2009-01-01T01:48:47Z Cynthia http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#c20a7b22-652b-4bee-8bb0-0115c62a7a40 2008-12-31T23:11:48Z 2008-12-31T23:11:48Z

there's an old north american native adage (Cree perhaps): 'What the people believe is true' I have found that this is always the case...

Cynthia 2008-12-31T23:11:48Z Jav http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#c8021182-b406-4076-b612-ea5ae4c9550c 2008-12-31T20:18:44Z 2008-12-31T20:18:44Z

Tells me more about Sam than anything else, not too worried about it....

Jav 2008-12-31T20:18:44Z Katrina http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#b5374fa1-7f0a-455c-9352-d264e2cbc28a 2008-12-31T20:16:01Z 2008-12-31T20:16:01Z

Yeah, that was a downright shitty Jab at Jav.

Katrina 2008-12-31T20:16:01Z Jav http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#0a28f94f-c368-4e59-9394-5cab1db354b3 2008-12-31T19:00:30Z 2008-12-31T19:00:30Z

Don't worry Cynthia, the world is flat, everything is under control, nothing to see here.....carry on..... ;)

Jav 2008-12-31T19:00:30Z Cynthia http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#039dfd98-da46-443c-b7a0-2d8c28847c0b 2008-12-30T23:37:34Z 2008-12-30T23:37:34Z

'I get it. It's like wow, dude, maybe there's things out there that are just, like, totally beyond our comprehension, but maybe some dude like Einstein or Thomas Edison will figure it out, and then we can groove with the plant people. That would be awesome.' Sam I am curious why you have read that tone into what Jav has said because I didn't get that from his discussion at all. I actually think he did a very good job articulating with far fewer words what I was trying to say earlier. (And I've got a hunch that people laughed about the possibility of something like an electron microscope a hundred years ago too...)

Cynthia 2008-12-30T23:37:34Z Jav http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#56a51177-a414-4aaa-ba23-7312e1e258cc 2008-12-30T20:28:56Z 2008-12-30T20:28:56Z

Wow Sam, it's such a pleasure talking with folks like you. By the way, the name's Jav, not Jay.......

Jav 2008-12-30T20:28:56Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#94071944-2e7b-4d64-ba11-69abeff27ecb 2008-12-30T03:25:51Z 2008-12-30T03:25:51Z

Jay, I get it. It's like wow, dude, maybe there's things out there that are just, like, totally beyond our comprehension, but maybe some dude like Einstein or Thomas Edison will figure it out, and then we can groove with the plant people. That would be awesome. Sam I know...you disagree.

Sam 2008-12-30T03:25:51Z Jav http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#bda9a3ee-78f7-4470-b8f1-7a5fd1cd2d97 2008-12-29T02:58:16Z 2008-12-29T02:58:16Z

Again, I disagree. I think our current technology (in terms of measuring capacity to communicate via other mediums, etc.) is subpar, but that in time it may get better. As far as wasting time on distractions, thanks for the advice, but if you're referring to my life path, then don't worry, I'm doing alright seeing the path for the most part, lol. If you're referring to communication with plants (the topic of this thread), then I think you need to pay more attention to these phenomenon, perhaps not ESP per se, but the whole range of possibilities that that implies. :)

Jav 2008-12-29T02:58:16Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#2e459b6b-9421-495c-83fa-d90603151b9f 2008-12-29T02:15:51Z 2008-12-29T02:15:51Z

Jay, "But what about things like ESP, or telekinesis, etc...." Things like these do not lend themselves to objective proofs. They can only be proven by individual experience. You have to be careful not to waste too much time on distractions. Sam

Sam 2008-12-29T02:15:51Z Jav http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#107f9003-dade-4e01-9ae8-fbbe7e6ab4c5 2008-12-27T20:10:44Z 2008-12-27T20:10:44Z

But what about things like ESP, or telekinesis, etc....We still have no scientific medium or device that can measure or record these types of phenomenon, and yet they are widely recorded throughout traditions everywhere in the world. So just like this, that we have no scientific basis for understanding these things, isn't it also possible that there are forms of communication from plants and animals that we haven't been able to define scientifically? Still, chemical communication or the ants and bees example is still using our human parameters to understand communication, it is still superimposing our definition of communication onto nature. So maybe there's other forms, like ESP, etc. that we have yet to define scientifically. After all, when you are a hammer everything looks like a nail. So if we're only looking for things that we understand as communication (scientifically), we may miss the mark by a long shot.... :)

Jav 2008-12-27T20:10:44Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#027cdeed-32f8-4b57-af1e-44d33acdc2a0 2008-12-27T15:59:06Z 2008-12-27T15:59:06Z

Jay, "Why is human communication the measuring stick for all communication?" It isn't. Tanemon provided a couple of examples of non-human communication: 1. "chemical communication (e.g., with pheromones) amongst insects, mammals, and plants. This is often refered to as "communication" but is not at all believed to involve will…" This is like broadcasting. It is indirect, as opposed to a direct exchange between individuals, but it is probably appropriate to refer to it as communication. An interesting point here is that, although there may not be individual intent, nature does have a purpose. 2. "Or think of how ants and bees etc communicate using touch (one to another, using their feet/legs) or 'dance' (flight patterns)...how much "will" is involved?". This seems a lot like human communication, in that it involves a direct exchange, an intention, and an action. Sam

Sam 2008-12-27T15:59:06Z Jav http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#4a747346-384e-40f7-90b7-12e4f6242272 2008-12-26T23:42:03Z 2008-12-26T23:42:03Z

"The second problem is, do plants have the ability to form an intention in the way that humans do? If not, then it is not possible for a plant to send a message directly." I respectfully and whole-heartedly disagree with this statement. Why is human communication the measuring stick for all communication?

Jav 2008-12-26T23:42:03Z Katrina http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#75e26574-95bd-43a4-97e0-fddf46c62864 2008-12-26T21:24:23Z 2008-12-26T21:24:23Z

Fifi, I read a book called "Social Intelligence" a few years back that I may re visit after reading your post. It was really very fascinating to understand how that "feeling" is a scientific response to countless pieces of data being transmitted through the senses.

Katrina 2008-12-26T21:24:23Z Katrina http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#0c5bfdc5-06de-464d-996d-553e7f129e4b 2008-12-26T21:20:20Z 2008-12-26T21:20:20Z

Cynthia, We are all gifted energy senders.. . I have to disagree there because plants seem not to do well around me but they do very well around my fiancee. Makes me sad really. I would like to develop a relationship with my backyard, as far as a garden is concerned. I almost feel that I take their energy, makes me feel terrible. It's not my intention. I'd love nothing more than to see them grow happily. I planned on acquainting myself more with the dirt this Spring. I may end up spending countless hours in a failing garden wishing plants would get better, talking to them.. only to make them worse. Perhaps I need to start communicating differently : )

Katrina 2008-12-26T21:20:20Z Cynthia http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#686f4b7d-901a-4463-b6a8-1b85af5efe21 2008-12-26T19:59:02Z 2008-12-26T19:59:02Z

Sam, 'The crux of the problem is how do we sense energetic connection, since there is no physical organ associated with it.' In my experience our entire body is associated with sensing energy. What it seems you want Sam (and I'm not saying you're wrong to want it) is a way to have scientific proof about this. I was trained as a scientist and IMO the scientific worldview, while useful, is only one worldview. It's only way to interpret and give meaning to reality. It falls short for many things and this is one of them.

Cynthia 2008-12-26T19:59:02Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#4cfaeecf-1ee2-4038-9b74-95b7a1c459e6 2008-12-26T19:37:32Z 2008-12-26T19:37:32Z

OK, I'd like to try to give this conversation a litle focus. Tanemon wrote: "My original inquiry here on this tribe - in my initial post - still stands: who has experience in getting (or giving) direct messages from/to plants? Via life-force exchange, or whatever?" So it seems to me that we were clearly talking about intentional communication between humans and plants. When we talk about "getting (or giving) direct messages to/from plants, we are talking about: 1. A direct exchange between two individuals of different speicies, 2. Forming an intention, and 3. Acting on it. The first problem is inter-species communication, since plants are not equipped to communicate in the way that humans do, and vice-versa. On what level is it possible that humans and plants might be able to communicate? I believe that the Samkhya philosophy provides some clues, if not the answer to this question. The second problem is, do plants have the ability to form an intention in the way that humans do? If not, then it is not possible for a plant to send a message directly. In that case, the types of messages we might be able to receive from plants would be more like chemical communication or broadcasting, like a ripple in the pond of consciousness. The third problem involves the method that we use to send or receive messages, assuming we have found a "port" or frequency on which a plant can broadcast or listen. I believe that yoga provides a partial answer to this question. Those of you who are familiar with energy work might have another part of the answer. Sam

Sam 2008-12-26T19:37:32Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#9d6be8bc-063c-4dce-862e-9e4347085da7 2008-12-24T23:41:34Z 2008-12-24T23:41:34Z

Oh, and by the way, happy holidays everyone! Sam

Sam 2008-12-24T23:41:34Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#65393ee6-cd64-436c-bef8-1ea8fa75f26f 2008-12-24T18:57:24Z 2008-12-24T18:57:24Z

Cynthia, >>When I am at my best and most present I communicate with people (human or otherwise) with my entire body. I perceive with all of my senses. I listen, feel, sense energetic connection, i observe, I think, I speak, I move I gesture, etc. >> The crux of the problem is how do we sense energetic connection, since there is no physical organ associated with it. In my experience with the tree, it was just a subjective feeling that I had, probably not something that could be replicated. The other side of the coin would be to demonstrate a response from a plant. As Tanemon said before, it's practicaly impossible to separate the energy factor from oher factors. I think this is why Tanemon wants to hear about other people's experiences. Sorry, Tanemon, the tree is all I've got right now. Sam

Sam 2008-12-24T18:57:24Z Fifi http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#832f6c63-9295-48b7-84f5-c74d93f463a4 2008-12-24T15:37:59Z 2008-12-24T15:37:59Z

Sam - No, I'm not arguing plants exhibit body language - that's your thought not mine. All I said was that human communication involves much more than "will" and words - in fact most of our truly relevant communication of honest information goes on at subconscious levels - therefore defining communication as an act of will is erroneous. That communication occurs on subconscious levels isn't some highly disputed theory. It's one of the reason that people with autism or who somehow have issues with mirror neurons tend to be so literal and have a hard time understanding social communication/interaction, they don't pick up the subtle clues that add the real meaning to words (sometimes revealing information that the speaker is willfully trying to suppress by consciously telling lies).

Fifi 2008-12-24T15:37:59Z Cynthia http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#c44e37b6-e2ce-4d5e-939d-f90b6ed7afc2 2008-12-24T13:43:22Z 2008-12-24T13:43:22Z

Sam-- '...involves the communicatee observing the communicator' it involves perception which is a different thing. it 's more than visual observation. When I am at my best and most present I communicate with people (human or otherwise) with my entire body. I perceive with all of my senses. I listen, feel, sense energetic connection, i observe, I think, I speak, I move I gesture, etc. What I am suggesting, and Tanemon I am sorry if all of this seems like just a digression, I don't believe it is, what I am suggesting is that these sorts of questions need to be answered if you are to really know that you are communicating with another being or simply talking to yourself. There's a lot of new age flakiness when discussing this kind of thing. Often it amounts to people projecting all kinds of human characteristics onto plants, animals, etc and calling it communication. Usually of it results in little more than talking to yourself. This is not my intention Go out and buy a few plants for christmas (don't let them freeze on the way home)...take care of them...experiment with communication...cultivate your own experiences. That's the only way you'll truly know. Tanemon I truly do think you'll get more satisfaction out of this conversation if you posted it on on bio regional animism tribe. Yes there are many there who work with plant medicines but there are many who do not.

Cynthia 2008-12-24T13:43:22Z SynerGy http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#b2dd92de-8435-4e51-84ab-3a67c8135955 2008-12-24T06:23:31Z 2008-12-24T06:23:31Z

psilocybin without a doubt a fungus all I got for now

SynerGy 2008-12-24T06:23:31Z Tanemon http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#d17eec57-1272-4667-b68e-49b5b02c84ae 2008-12-24T04:23:50Z 2008-12-24T04:23:50Z

Maybe this stupendous digression has been necessary to get us all on the same page. My original inquiry here on this tribe - in my initial post - still stands: who has experience in getting (or giving) direct messages tfrom/to plants? Via life-force exchange, or whatever? Tell us about your experiences. Or, if you have a method, tell us about your method.

Tanemon 2008-12-24T04:23:50Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#d2fd9b36-30c5-405a-9c71-5d937f366c20 2008-12-24T03:29:41Z 2008-12-24T03:29:41Z

OK. I don't have a problem drawing a distinction between communication that occurs on a conscious level and communication that can occur without conscious effort or will on the part of the communicator. It seems to me that type of unconscious communication among people really involves the communicatee observing the communicator, so its questionable whether or not its appropriate to call it communication. In that sense,I suppose you could argue that plants exhibit a sort of body language (wilting) and facial expressions (yellow leaves) that we can observe. Then, as Cathyq said, its a matter of paying attention. Regarding the types of "communication" that Tanemon talked about, that is new and interesting territory for me. Sam

Sam 2008-12-24T03:29:41Z Cynthia http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#2a11b35c-2b98-48bd-b1c1-f85fd508b907 2008-12-23T22:14:45Z 2008-12-23T22:14:45Z

Fifi, 'I kind of come to the same place from the opposite end of the spectrum.' yeah I got that and I love when that happens. to me it's a celebration of the unity in diversity-that's yoga!

Cynthia 2008-12-23T22:14:45Z Cynthia http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#42bbead4-dc0d-4a86-808d-9906b2ff2880 2008-12-23T22:12:09Z 2008-12-23T22:12:09Z

'...just thought I'd drop in my two cents about human communication :-)' and good points they are. I spent 10 years as a professional stage manager in the theatre and my experience leads me to similar conclusions about human communication. I'm never surprised by mis-communication. What really amazes me is that humans can communicate at all! Still, we are human and so we can only use ourselves as a starting point. I think if we only stay at that level of self referencing as Jav points out we miss alot.

Cynthia 2008-12-23T22:12:09Z Cynthia http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#025af1e4-fd81-4a92-8660-250cfe34ca74 2008-12-23T22:05:23Z 2008-12-23T22:05:23Z

'Whereas it seems to me that will is a blurry concept, that the definition of will for a plant-person may be very different than for us, so we shouldn't use the human concept of will to determine if communication exists. ' I agree 'So I think we're kinda saying the same thing, lol! :)' yeah more or less!

Cynthia 2008-12-23T22:05:23Z Fifi http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#da4b4567-b438-4285-8270-a541b9fa3613 2008-12-23T18:21:13Z 2008-12-23T18:21:13Z

Jav - I'll leave you guys to speculate about communicating with plants, just thought I'd drop in my two cents about human communication :-)

Fifi 2008-12-23T18:21:13Z Jav http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#410af694-c512-415e-ae3c-675ec1e7abcd 2008-12-23T18:14:06Z 2008-12-23T18:14:06Z

That's a really good point Fifi, and I think ties in with what I was saying above, that will is not necessarily the measuring device to determine if communication exists or not, but rather that it's also, constantly really, happening at other levels with mirror neurons, psychological signals, hormones/pheromones, and who knows how many other communcation forms we haven't identified scientifically yet. So to communicate with a plant, more than a conscious will to create communication, is to just sort of tap into that pre-existing stream of communication.....

Jav 2008-12-23T18:14:06Z Jav http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#1d1b1a3b-fd7f-4115-a198-ed950ae18e3e 2008-12-23T18:11:33Z 2008-12-23T18:11:33Z

;) Hey you! Got your psychic telegraph this morning! I wasn't saying that communication IS inferior or subject to communication. What I was saying was that if you assume that communication requires will, then you're also assuming will is more important, like some kind of defining factor. Whereas it seems to me that will is a blurry concept, that the definition of will for a plant-person may be very different than for us, so we shouldn't use the human concept of will to determine if communication exists. And yes, also, I agree with you that apart from will, human or plant version, communication is constantly occurring in a variety of ways. So I think we're kinda saying the same thing, lol! :)

Jav 2008-12-23T18:11:33Z Fifi http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#d49d678d-96ff-4cde-b92e-560bbae71412 2008-12-23T18:08:04Z 2008-12-23T18:08:04Z

Cynthia - I'm not an animist myself but I can entirely understand it's appeal and generally get along well with people who have a respectful approach to nature (I kind of come to the same place from the opposite end of the spectrum). And, when I popped in, I saw human communication being spoken about as if it was all about conscious intent (will) when what we literally say is often quite different from what we actually communicate. A very large part of communication is based upon empathy - aka mirror neurons - and subtle physiological signals that remain beneath the threshold of consciousness.

Fifi 2008-12-23T18:08:04Z Cynthia http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#05cd5ea6-c425-4cc0-91b6-7741fbe253aa 2008-12-23T17:59:45Z 2008-12-23T17:59:45Z

that's nicely said fifi. nice to hear your voice here too.

Cynthia 2008-12-23T17:59:45Z Cynthia http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#6ac424c9-55f1-4ff2-89cc-bad2d6f977d1 2008-12-23T17:58:22Z 2008-12-23T17:58:22Z

'as inferior to will,' inferior? or subject too? or is that kind of saying the same thing? (I'm being stupid here and too lazy to look in the dictionary) having the 'will' to communicate and actually doing so isn't always the same thing. I'm not saying that they're mutually exclusive either. I'm saying I believe we are all in communication with everything all the time whether we will it or not--all the time... and I was hoping to hear your voice ya mismo, nerudacito!! as in just this morning, just after I posted that. I was feeling a bit like a lonely animist here and well, I guess you got the connection and the communication...you rock!

Cynthia 2008-12-23T17:58:22Z Jav http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#592f8263-0482-469a-8d45-6f99e7bc7f2d 2008-12-23T17:13:59Z 2008-12-23T17:13:59Z

But, by relegating communication as inferior to will, that is, if we say that only communication with will is true communication, then what we are doing is creating a model that assumes that human communication is true communication, and that all other forms of communication are less valid, or less "communicative".....you know what I mean? First off, I'm not sure the plant communication is without will. We would have to get into definitions of will there, and that conversation could be broad. But second off, and more importantly, why is will, a human defined characteristic in this case, a necessary factor for true communication? True communication can only occur once you shut off your own expectations and constructs regarding what communication is. Remember, each plant is a person, and every person has their own communication style. Rather than try to define what is or is not communication, we should suspend our models for a moment, and try to tune into theirs, this is listening, or attention as was so well put above...... :)

Jav 2008-12-23T17:13:59Z Fifi http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#f34548f0-6d4a-482b-8829-512bcf6c9c4a 2008-12-23T17:10:31Z 2008-12-23T17:10:31Z

"Is it always an act of will? I'm not so sure it is. I'll mull it over and get back to you!" Communication between humans often occurs on very subtle and unconscious levels - not only that of scent but also minute facial expressions, tone of voice, posture and all the other things that we usually experience as intuition and a "feeling" about someone. It's why people with autism have such a hard time understanding neurotypical people and are so literal - we're rarely communicating just what we're literally saying. It's also why email and online communication can be problematic.

Fifi 2008-12-23T17:10:31Z Tanemon http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#5c02dfe8-9df4-4a3f-b5cf-4d6dedcba3a2 2008-12-23T16:52:49Z 2008-12-23T16:52:49Z

"'That falls short of communication though, which would be an act of will.'" "Nice one Sam--this may just be one of the most important statements that has come out of this discussion-- what constitutes communication?" Okay, well, think for a moment of the modern, Western, scientific understanding of chemical communication (e.g., with pheromones) amongst insects, mammals, and plants. This is often refered to as "communication" but is not at all believed to involve will - it's in fact considered to be automatic, seasonal, occasion-specific, etc. Or think of how ants and bees etc communicate using touch (one to another, using their feet/legs) or 'dance' (flight patterns). These kinds of "communication" have come into focus, as realities, for biologists within recent decades and the understanding is just at its beginning... much more will be learned. I'd call these sorts of things communication, but how much "will" is involved?

Tanemon 2008-12-23T16:52:49Z Cynthia http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#96b7b959-dc21-49de-9fc3-91b52e35d7ec 2008-12-23T13:23:12Z 2008-12-23T13:23:12Z

'I've been busy moving into a new place, hence the delay.' I hope it was a good move and that the dust settles soon. 'That falls short of communication though, which would be an act of will.' Nice one Sam--this may just be one of the most important statements that has come out of this discussion-- what constitutes communication? Is it always an act of will? I'm not so sure it is. I'll mull it over and get back to you!

Cynthia 2008-12-23T13:23:12Z Cynthia http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#945b93b3-4d92-4f90-94ec-d4f5982924c6 2008-12-23T13:08:11Z 2008-12-23T13:08:11Z

'To me, it's about attention.' Yes, that is a very good point cathyq. Attention is one of the first steps to establishing relationship and it sounds like you have a great relationship with your plants.

Cynthia 2008-12-23T13:08:11Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#2889512b-14da-4094-bee5-6299c8f80956 2008-12-23T02:15:44Z 2008-12-23T02:15:44Z

Cathyq, >>To me, it's about attention. Good point. Sam

Sam 2008-12-23T02:15:44Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#6f12b88e-95c2-4751-ac0c-a1c0c1a1a108 2008-12-23T02:07:29Z 2008-12-23T02:07:29Z

Cynthia, I've been busy moving into a new place, hence the delay. >>and then what happened? - Then things returned to normal. >>are you sure about that? Well, I'm sure the tree didn't react physically. It's possible that the tree might have experienced a modification (vrtti) in its field of consciousness that I somehow picked up on. That falls short of communication though, which would be an act of will. Sam

Sam 2008-12-23T02:07:29Z Cynthia http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#a8a562f6-b1b7-46d7-bbbb-9cd1381c36b4 2008-12-20T14:50:11Z 2008-12-20T14:50:11Z

Thanks for sharing your thoughts PP, but I was asking Sam...

Cynthia 2008-12-20T14:50:11Z Karen http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#95ddb820-8c75-41fb-be8c-c175fc87645b 2008-12-19T02:52:11Z 2008-12-19T02:52:11Z

OK! So weird! I was just on here reading and adding my 2cents the other day! Then last night at yoga my instructor starts talking about plants!! Karen

Karen 2008-12-19T02:52:11Z yogamoon http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#637f7d3a-18dc-40f7-b6c7-b2c0b52099a0 2008-12-18T15:48:13Z 2008-12-18T15:48:13Z

I am npot mystic. When I am balanced and doing lots os self-expression etc.. then I hav emy plants on a schedule for maintenance.. fertilizing. Also when I am not workign I hav emor etime. Sometimes the not working time is not good for mebut I hav etime to rotate my plants and to fertilize, groom.. etc.. I am psychic in many ways, but my plants mostly thrive from good attention. That said, i love my plants always. I have plants which have been with me for many years.. soem survived 5 moves in 4 years.. and there weren't places for plants in a few of those places.. now I've in the same place a few months and they all have good window places and hav ebeen transplanted and look great. To me, it's about attention.

yogamoon 2008-12-18T15:48:13Z ProjectProphet http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#993f52f8-260f-4f9b-9fa7-64bfbc553f3f 2008-12-18T15:24:36Z 2008-12-18T15:24:36Z

<<< SAM: "this only happened within my own mind.' " >>> <<< CYNTHIA: "are you sure about that? just curious..." >>> Sure he / she is.... everything comes from thought, the world around you is nothing more than your thought forms at work... So what about thoughts? Thought comes from mind/ego. What is mind/ego? The ego is not a solid entity; there is no tangible element known as "the ego." The ego is the continuous process of constantly re-creating yourself each moment of your life, from birth all the way to death. The ego is transcended by keeping the vital force (prana) centered in the heart region and resting in the gaps between your breathing cycles. eventually, you just automatically stop breathing, and go into higher planes of being/non-being. bliss, ProjecTpropheT

ProjectProphet 2008-12-18T15:24:36Z Cynthia http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#5d3eb566-d0c9-47d5-8003-1f168693ff0f 2008-12-18T12:32:50Z 2008-12-18T12:32:50Z

'So one day I sat on this branch and had the distinct feeling that the tree went, Whoa! What is that?' and then what happened? 'this only happened within my own mind.' are you sure about that? just curious...

Cynthia 2008-12-18T12:32:50Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#24b6a739-15b6-48d9-a1aa-9f3081730ca8 2008-12-18T00:05:50Z 2008-12-18T00:05:50Z

In the summertime I like to go down to the riverbank and practice yoga. There's a tree on the riverbank with a big branch that runs parallel to the ground at just the right height to sit on. So one day I sat on this branch and had the distinct feeling that the tree went, Whoa! What is that? No, I wasn't stoned. And, of course, this only happened within my own mind. Sam

Sam 2008-12-18T00:05:50Z ProjectProphet http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#e0389e7e-60a7-4e56-b0e1-d0efcc2994ce 2008-12-17T21:35:35Z 2008-12-17T21:34:54Z

every time i smoke ganja i am in deep communion with the Lord of both the cannabis plant and all of existence/ non-existence....the same being essentially... even when i used to sit next to my plants they would communicate with me... P

ProjectProphet 2008-12-17T21:34:54Z Cynthia http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#70311954-a4ee-4b90-b42d-fd1288e6532b 2008-12-17T13:48:59Z 2008-12-17T13:48:59Z

oops! that should say Talbot as in author of the holographic universe

Cynthia 2008-12-17T13:48:59Z Cynthia http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#47788ffd-2d82-4958-8afa-dc4fd0959ce0 2008-12-17T13:47:41Z 2008-12-17T13:47:41Z

Thanks for sharing that Karen. 'It was like the plants would sense those feelings and react to them. Don't know how or why, just know that they did. ' I'm not exactly sure how they do it either but i've experienced this sort of thing many times over the years. I used to be a grocery buyer at a food coop and I'd notice that some days a majority of customers would buy one specific item--not because it was on sale, not because it was a popular item, just---well, for whatever reason. Or some days it would be a popular item and almost every customer had to have it. We seem to all pick up on energetic signals--whether we're plants, or humans, or insects. We all are able to do this, but perhaps some of us are more adept than others. I can't explain the mechanism scientifically (though I'm leaning towards explanations by people like Grof and Boem and Tlabot). I have no desire at this point in my life to conduct scientific studies with plants, but I hope that others carry on this line of research.

Cynthia 2008-12-17T13:47:41Z Karen http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#059ab249-f861-488f-8651-63e744df82d1 2008-12-16T16:25:34Z 2008-12-16T16:25:34Z

Wow! This is an interesting topic! So, my two cents.... ...I know for sure that if I talk to my plants and show them a little love they grow better. It could be that I am breathing CO2 on them and they like it or that the love energy helps them or that it is just the nature of things that are taken care of to prosper. I personally believe that when I interact with my plants that it makes them happy so they return the favor. Sometime things aren't really scientific, they just are. ..My Mom used to always grow plants. She even had a sun room. It was funny, but I could always know that there was something going on with her by the way her plants where. Now she would always water, feed, and take care of them but sometimes they would just start wilting or get yellow leaves for what seemed no reason. I could come in her house and see the plants and ask her what was going on. She would always say everything was fine, but then would talk to me a few days later, realizing that there had been some stuff on her mind that she was concerned about. It was like the plants would sense those feelings and react to them. Don't know how or why, just know that they did. Karen

Karen 2008-12-16T16:25:34Z Cynthia http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#fe53f655-1e9f-48a4-9024-33c637475134 2008-12-14T21:34:00Z 2008-12-14T21:34:00Z

Thanks for that response Tanemon. 'So in my own informal (non-scientific) way of going about this, it has been impossible for me to separate energy exchanges, as such, from a growth of plant-wise common sense in my rational mind.' I agree. it's part of what makes verbalizing about this so difficult. I have training both worlds--the scientific and the 'mystic' for lack of a better way to put it right now. There is no question in my mind or heart, based on my experiences in life that plants can and do and wish to (well not all of them) communicate with humans. We can't communicate until we establish a common language and that common language is energetic.

Cynthia 2008-12-14T21:34:00Z Tanemon http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#5c783936-aefe-478e-9f6b-b995caa77992 2008-12-14T16:39:10Z 2008-12-14T16:39:10Z

I got into energy work (Reiki & qi gong) about eight years ago, after many years of meditation, dream-journaling, and time spent in nature (wilderness & rural). I found energy work to be distinct from the other pathways of self-exploration and exploration of 'living on Earth'. Now in the last eight years, it so happens that my plants - in my food gardens, my house plants, and my 'ornamental' outdoor shrubs & trees - have generally become healthier and grown more vigorously. Sam raises a point suggesting that maybe improved health/growth may be about: "The ability to tune in to the needs a particular plant [which] might represent good powers of observation and a more general attunement to life, rather than a communication from the plant itself. " To be honest, this is just the thing that I've asked myself about. Because, although I've been gardening since I was a kid, I do continue to learn more about plants and soil every year - from observation and from rational study, as much as anything. So in my own informal (non-scientific) way of going about this, it has been impossible for me to separate energy exchanges, as such, from a growth of plant-wise common sense in my rational mind. And that's partly why I started this thread, and why I'm so glad to be discussing this with people who are intelligent, knowledgeable about scientific method, open-minded, and involved with plants. (So thanks to all of you!)

Tanemon 2008-12-14T16:39:10Z Cynthia http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#870aef9e-7489-496e-ab2d-6cf0dd263716 2008-12-14T15:27:47Z 2008-12-14T15:27:47Z

Hi Sam, I'm game to carry on this conversation along these lines. I would also suggest that you post this topic (or I will if you wish) on bioregional animism tribe. I think you'll get a very interesting discussion. 'It seems to me that if we talk about communicating with plants, there has to be some type of a "self" with whom we communicate.' does there? 'self' is a human concept...now I know that we humans seem to need to self reference when we begin to establish a relationship or try to communicate but that's just the first step. 'If a plant is capable of feeling things like suffering and happiness, that would be an indication that such a self does exist.' Would it? I mean, that's a very human way of looking at it. those are some of the 'indicators' that we humans use to determine 'self-hood,' 'self-ness' however you wish to call it, (though I 'm not sure they're the best ones even for humans). We know that plants do not have localized brains like we do. Is that what leads us to assume that a plant is not sentient? A plant doesn't need a localized brain. a plant's 'brain', if you will, is distributed throughout the plant. Every part of the plant is aware and is in contact and relationship with every part of its environment. The plant senses the world around it and responds accordingly. So to question whether or not a plant has a 'self', or to suggest (if that's what you are suggesting) that a plant has no awareness of itself simply because humans cannot decide whether or not a plant experiences what humans would call happiness or suffering or some other human state of being puzzles me... 'The ability to tune in to the needs a particular plant might represent good powers of observation and a more general attunement to life, rather than a communication from the plant itself.' Thanks for bringing this up. This always a possibility-it usually translates as anthropomorphism--I'm not a fan of that, personally. Okay Sam more later if you want. post or pm me. I have other things I need to do right now but I'm happy to continue this conversation. Cynthia

Cynthia 2008-12-14T15:27:47Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#43302411-cb89-44e4-a64e-eba70124ea53 2008-12-13T19:00:14Z 2008-12-13T19:00:14Z

Cynthia, Since no one else is contributing, I think its appropriate to let the dialogue develop along these lines. "so the questions were: 'do the plants suffer and are they happier in other growing conditions?' Although i did (somewhat jokingly) use the term 'happy plant' in an earlier post, these types of questions give rise to a tendency to anthropomorphize and project human characteristics onto plants." It seems to me that if we talk about communicating with plants, there has to be some type of a "self" with whom we communicate. If a plant is capable of feeling things like suffering and happiness, that would be an indication that such a self does exist. Another indication would be the existence of senses. Plants are generally considered non-sentient, or at best, to possess a very rudimentary form of the sense of touch. Without these indicators, it seems to me that there really is no plant "self" to communicate with. The ability to tune in to the needs a particular plant might represent good powers of observation and a more general attunement to life, rather than a communication from the plant itself. If, on the other hand, we allow for some form of sensory ability and the capacity for some type of rudimentary feeling, then it is much easier to say that a plant "self" with whom we can communicate does exist. Sam

Sam 2008-12-13T19:00:14Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#dc1085dd-b7de-4057-9eed-38370ebc97bf 2008-12-07T22:16:55Z 2008-12-07T22:16:55Z

Tanemon, Also your suggestion of a separate thread on the distinction between human and plant consciousness is constructive. Thank you. sam

Sam 2008-12-07T22:16:55Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#86bba1cf-7f71-45bf-9ac4-cdd421198e91 2008-12-07T19:31:37Z 2008-12-07T19:31:37Z

Tanemon, "In any case, I started the thread to invite people to share experiences with plants in terms of what is no doubt a different form of "communication" (or interaction, if we like). So I'd ask that we let this dialogue develop..." I'd like to point out for the benefit of others that it was I who requested that you to post this thread here because I wanted to comment on it. My interest is in the many philosophical questions raised by the possiblilty of humans communicating with plants. I thought that represented a development of the dialogue, although you did state in your original post that you are less interested in theory and more interested in actual experience. I regret that I am not able to offer much in the way of experience, but I think the philosophical questions regarding the nature of human consciousness as opposed to plant consiousness and the nature of communication are important and go beyond the issue of communication. I dealt with some of these in my blog at http://samkhya-yoga.org/blogs/reflections/archive/2008/11/16/interacting-with-plants.aspx. I appreciate your referring me to the wikipedia article on "noosphere". This might be a good discussion topic. Sam

Sam 2008-12-07T19:31:37Z SynerGy http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#23716786-4d42-4a24-b216-db69658b7a56 2008-12-03T07:05:33Z 2008-12-03T07:05:33Z

I enjoy communicating via the help of plants . ..

SynerGy 2008-12-03T07:05:33Z Cynthia http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#8ee41e87-c85d-42bd-807a-1217e2c2cff6 2008-12-03T01:17:33Z 2008-12-03T01:17:33Z

'It might require gifted "energy senders" in order to really manifest results, and it might take more than one season (i.e., more than one year) to come up with any sort of significant results.' well, we are all gifted energy senders so I am not sure about that. the scenario from the celestine prophecy you mention is interesting but unless you have a need to gather qualitative data on the subject I think that all that is needed is the proper intention. IMO the first of those intentions is to learn how to communicate with a particular plant. That's what I was getting at in the post below. If you don't have a proper relationship with a human person how can you really 'send energy' to him or her in an effective way? So if you're sending energy to a plant person and, for example, your intention in sending energy is solely to ensure better growth and a better harvest without really wanting a relationship then I think such an experiment would meet with limited success. (I'm not saying this is your intention by the way it's just an example) Why? because it's a rather one sided experiment. You need to also see if there is a reciprocal human response--then you can say communication is or isn't happening. 'Seems to me that much might be learned.' plants have taught me some of my greatest lessons in life.

Cynthia 2008-12-03T01:17:33Z Cynthia http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#e4326283-f0bb-402b-8bef-e20c64051443 2008-12-02T21:27:30Z 2008-12-02T21:27:30Z

'and perhaps start another thread for the pursuit of discussion about the distinction of human consciousness, per se, from human-plant interaction, okay? (PM me if you like.) I'd prefer not to have this thread steered into a big digression.' i'm okay with that Tanemon but indulge me for another paragraph or two because I believe that distinction is important and here's why. I made lots of analytical separation in my previous post even though I know that all life is one. so the questions were: 'do the plants suffer and are they happier in other growing conditions?' Although i did (somewhat jokingly) use the term 'happy plant' in an earlier post, these types of questions give rise to a tendency to anthropomorphize and project human characteristics onto plants. The more we do that (in my experience) the less able we are to truly communicate with plants (or any other non human). Why? because we set our expectation for communication to happen in a certain way (read a particularly human way) My first job out of university was conducting forestry research on reclaimed strip mines. As i would walk through the woods looking for trees to measure I soon realized that I could tell if a tree was alive or dead simply by touching it. The tree either had life force or it didn't and i could feel it or not feel it as the case may be? What I have felt with plants growing under duress is that their life force usually feels low. When plants are growing optimally their life force feels strong. I have encountered old old trees that i was sure from a distance were dead or nearly dead only to come closer and feel that actually the tree's energy was quite strong. Here's one more example. Once I was sitting on a fence under a tree with a very bored 5 year old girl. I was not looking at her but i kept feeling this sensation of being pinched. I looked at the girl and saw that she was very carelessly ripping leaves from the tree. I don't know if the tree actually hurt but it definitely did not 'like' what the child was doing and I believe was letting me know. I said to this girl that maybe tearing leaves off the tree could hurt the tree and maybe she could stop doing that. She stopped. (Was the tree suffering. I was that's all I can say for sure. but when she stopped tearing leaves i stopped feeling like someone was pinching me. ) Then she said to me with confidence 'That tree is not alive' When I asked her why she believed that she said ' Because trees can't talk.' I told her maybe she didn't quite how to listen. And that's all it is--maybe we just don't always know how to listen.

Cynthia 2008-12-02T21:27:30Z Tanemon http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#829bc37f-3847-48a4-a160-9f6790699f75 2008-12-02T16:00:25Z 2008-12-02T16:00:25Z

In James Refield's popular novel The Celestine Prohecy, the protagonist goes on a journey in South America. In the early part of his journey (in which the itinerary is determined by synchronistic meetings with interesting and helpful people), he visits an experimental station in a rural area. Scientists there are researching the human-energy reality, and one experiment involves people giving meditative energy boosts to a plot of growing plants; a team of two people sit at the plot (one at each end) and 'intend' energy to the plants in the specific plot. The development of this plot is then monitored and compared with control plots, etc. A scene in a novel But this scenario is interesting to me, though I don't know whether it has actually been carried out (with all the strict controls and monitoring) in real life. I've rarely found people who had an interest in this subject plus also had the self-discipline to pursue an experiment like this over time. It might require gifted "energy senders" in order to really manifest results, and it might take more than one season (i.e., more than one year) to come up with any sort of significant results. Seems to me that much might be learned.

Tanemon 2008-12-02T16:00:25Z Tanemon http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#1f9de287-bd5f-467d-a063-eba8fbb900ad 2008-12-01T15:36:33Z 2008-12-01T15:36:33Z

Sam, it seems to me that your interests in the topic are related to consciousness in the form that we know it amongst human beings. Perhaps you are or would be interested in the concept of the "noosphere" ( see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noosphere ). The Western scientific theory is roughly that over time, Earth (which is essentially a "geosphere") has developed a biosphere and a noosphere (realm of human ideas & communication). In any case, I started the thread to invite people to share experiences with plants in terms of what is no doubt a different form of "communication" (or interaction, if we like). So I'd ask that we let this dialogue develop, and perhaps start another thread for the pursuit of discussion about the distinction of human consciousness, per se, from human-plant interaction, okay? (PM me if you like.) I'd prefer not to have this thread steered into a big digression.

Tanemon 2008-12-01T15:36:33Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#758185ed-62a3-473d-a179-ddc51789754f 2008-11-30T21:29:39Z 2008-11-30T21:29:39Z

I agree that less reliance on industrial agriculture would be a good thing.

Sam 2008-11-30T21:29:39Z Cynthia http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#936f783d-f969-4197-a0e9-3e44597e34b4 2008-11-30T21:17:27Z 2008-11-30T21:17:27Z

'I can see your point. The end of large scale agriculture would probably mean that most of the world's population would starve to death. The planet might well be better off with fewer of us humans around. no Sam I'm not saying that. Humans are an integral part of this planet (which I relate to as a living sentient being). As for whether or not the planet is better off with fewer humans around I honestly can't say. But I highly doubt that large scale agriculture would collapse so rapidly that the human population of the world would starve. I think rather it would be a natural, progression towards a different way of growing the food we humans consume. 'Are you suggesting that civilization could return to subsistence farming? ' not subsistence farming, sustainable farming. Do you think that plants experience suffering when they are subjected to stresses like extremes of temperature or drought?' now this is an interesting question. on this playground planet earth i'm a human, not a plant, and i sometimes suffer. What i have come to learn about my suffering is that when I suffer it's because I choose to do so. I'm not talking about whether or not I feel pain which is a stimulus/response situation (though some actually would argue that pain is only in the mind). I'm talking about whether or not I suffer. I can be in pain and choose not to suffer over it. That's because humans have this thing called a mind and this thing called ego and blah blah that's a topic for another discussion really. My point is what's suffering? A plant growing under duress is just that: under duress and that plant will take necessary actions to preserve its life to the best of its abilities. That could mean going dormant like grasses, or dropping leaves like trees and shrubs do under drought. or it could mean producing seed to ensure species survival over individual survival. I didn't answer your questions completely and i have to go right now but let me just say that I appreciate your skepticism Sam (I am trained as a scientist, so I can understand) and I'm not trying to convince you of anything. And meanwhile, you might find the book The Botany of Desire a fascinating read.

Cynthia 2008-11-30T21:17:27Z Tanemon http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#19c99355-f634-4e1b-a7d0-d345274d8b23 2008-11-30T00:59:39Z 2008-11-30T00:59:39Z

"The end of large scale agriculture would probably mean that most of the world's population would starve to death. The planet might well be better off with fewer of us humans around. Are you suggesting that civilization could return to subsistence farming?" I just wanted to comment on this, though I have no desire to pre-empt a response from Cynthia, which you've asked for. Today, we have large-scale industrialized agriculture. If we gain new knowledge about how human intent and human energy may interact synergistically with plants, that would not result in a sudden collapse of industrial agriculture. The new knowledge might be gradually absorbed into our 'toolkit' of understanding and technique. Change would probably be gradual, not the sudden abandonment that you implied in your 'human die-off' scenario. I grow food and know many people who do, on smallish acreages (5-50 acres), and in my region the small farm has once again proven itself to be a real contributor. The technology is not pre-industrial but, in a certain sense, post-industrial. It blends the traditional with the innovative - people give appropriate use to tractors, rotary tillers, greenhouses, irrigation equipment, etc... it's different from farming, in say, 1920. More is being learned all the time, and organic methods (representing one line of development) are more advanced today than they were a couple decades ago. There is room for more small farms. Much land in my region has been lying fallow, and some is being revived. The utilization of the countryside (and of land within cities) may be different in years to come than we are accustomed to today.

Tanemon 2008-11-30T00:59:39Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#e6aeb677-05c3-4b5f-9a66-5957970471ea 2008-11-29T21:44:39Z 2008-11-29T21:44:39Z

Cynthia, "I disagree, it could have plenty of practical use and would probably lead to the end of large scale agriculture which imo might do the world a lot of good." I love it when people disagree with me. I can see your point. The end of large scale agriculture would probably mean that most of the world's population would starve to death. The planet might well be better off with fewer of us humans around. Are you suggesting that civilization could return to subsistence farming? Forgive me for being such a skeptic (pain in the *ss). That's what I do. Since you have so much experience with plants, I'm interested in your opinion. Do you think that plants experience suffering when they are subjected to stresses like extremes of temperature or drought? Also, do you think that plants are happier in a twisted and tangled jungle competing with all sorts of other plants for sunlight and nutrients, or in a cultivated and irrigated field with full sunlight? Sam

Sam 2008-11-29T21:44:39Z Cynthia http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#8ec1e786-95df-4a2f-9dc8-4a72e7df308e 2008-11-28T18:24:48Z 2008-11-28T18:24:48Z

Sam, 'But again, what's the point?' good question. no point unless you wish to expand your universe a bit and experience more of what is possible. to me life (and yoga) is about finding meaning, and one way i do that is by establishing and deepening relationships. if i am only in relationship with other humans (not possible, really, whether you're aware of it or not) i am cutting myself and my experience off from an entire realm of possible relationships. 'If you think in terms of large scale agriculture, it has no practical purpose.' I disagree, it could have plenty of practical use and would probably lead to the end of large scale agriculture which imo might do the world a lot of good. 'The point may be to help us understand our own nature and the nature of life itself. ' well, yes if you are paying attention, you may well find yourself pulled in that direction.

Cynthia 2008-11-28T18:24:48Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#baaa4a13-4648-42e6-95de-0107ddc1f9bc 2008-11-28T17:04:33Z 2008-11-28T17:04:33Z

Tanemon, I think it is within the realm of possibility. There's plenty of anecdotal evidence around. But again, what's the point? If you think in terms of large scale agriculture, it has no practical purpose. The point may be to help us understand our own nature and the nature of life itself. Sam

Sam 2008-11-28T17:04:33Z Tanemon http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#0aed15de-fc6a-4033-8811-e6a0eb5b5052 2008-11-24T23:30:53Z 2008-11-24T23:30:53Z

Mark wrote: "It's larger than that... It is in everything and more so in Living Beings: Quintessence (above the 4 elements....), Life, Spirit, call it what you will." Yes, of course it's larger. Didn't mean to limit it by reference simply to 'green thumbs' and plants - but I was addressing the human/plant connection, specifically, which is what the thread is about. And I used a specific illustration. But you're right, Mark.

Tanemon 2008-11-24T23:30:53Z Mark http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#839aad19-9100-4660-a2cb-36a0301245de 2008-11-24T20:52:03Z 2008-11-24T20:52:03Z

It's larger than that... It is in everything and more so in Living Beings: Quintessence (above the 4 elements....), Life, Spirit, call it what you will... InChinese Culture, it's the element of Wood.

Mark 2008-11-24T20:52:03Z Tanemon http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#7d9c0474-1d56-4527-9c4a-10e59107c2e9 2008-11-24T18:49:15Z 2008-11-24T18:49:15Z

Once when I was in western Mexico, I spent about a week at a Huichol cultural center. The Huichol have traditionally been explorers of alternate realities and have many shamans among them, and they supported themselves as grub-hoe farmers. They are also artists, and I bought a fabric pictures that show one of their shamans out in a field gtiveing energy to the growing rows of plants with a ceremonial wand. I tend to believe that in our scientific culture we know a lot - but not all - about what makes plants grow and be healthy. Of course, it involves selection of appropriate plants for a given region or environment, and also good seed or cuttings (genetics), good soil supplying the major, minor, and trace minerals, water, air, good drainage, and light. But I also think an "X-factor" (something not identified or recognized by modern scientific agronomy) can come into play. In my view, this X-factor is an energy mediated by human beings. Some people are, either consciously or unconsciously, better conduits for this energy than others. That's what the role of the Huichol shaman has been, in relation to plants - and that's what "having a green thumb" is probably all about, in our culture. What do you think?

Tanemon 2008-11-24T18:49:15Z Jav http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#9dc97234-512a-453f-81b5-78933ec83abb 2008-11-24T16:45:29Z 2008-11-24T16:45:29Z

Cynthia, I've told you, you rock, before right? ;) It's so funny in your post, just the other day I pruned some branches off a couple plants I have, but I felt really kinda rude doing it, and only did it because it was a gift for someone I care about. Seemed like the plants were ok with it. Almost immediately after I cut the branches they let me know clearly that they weren't stoked about the bare spots, or about me just wandering off with a part of them. I paid attention, went and got some tobacco, smeared it on the clear spot to help it heal a bit, offered a bit to the plant as a whole, did that for each one, and then they were all more ok with it, happier no doubt. Now they've got more big bright flowers growin'! :)

Jav 2008-11-24T16:45:29Z Cynthia http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#a4779fbf-8f6b-45af-908a-0c0e440f3285 2008-11-22T23:37:50Z 2008-11-22T23:37:50Z

thanks sam

Cynthia 2008-11-22T23:37:50Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#96f7141e-f27c-4b0d-9e80-c7f77f041c60 2008-11-22T22:45:57Z 2008-11-22T22:45:57Z

Cynthia, Interesting post. Sam

Sam 2008-11-22T22:45:57Z Mark http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#9c8f52ce-fb79-4fe8-b9f4-17ea903e6178 2008-11-22T18:28:15Z 2008-11-22T18:28:15Z

Tanemon: I really enjoyed your entry! Plants: they talk to me. Happy plants, happy clients, happy me. ...see the patterns and connections to my energy and the response of the plant.

Mark 2008-11-22T18:28:15Z Mark http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#72edf494-92d3-4986-a22d-d5899e5d2288 2008-11-22T18:25:55Z 2008-11-22T18:25:55Z

Well, it's a point of view, of course, that distractions on the Path abound, obviously, everything is a learning experience. Union with the Divine, also has many different synonyms. That said, one can be waylaid in the mere striving for Siddhis in and of themselves, and not the Samadhi - 'the Golden communion of souls' (my quote). Am I 'besides the point' ? ML.

Mark 2008-11-22T18:25:55Z Mark http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#b645d1b7-9fe0-4c9d-a805-101aa59c9998 2008-11-22T18:23:29Z 2008-11-22T18:23:29Z

The development of power proves the efficacy of the teaching. LOL, yup, can't deny that ! ;- )

Mark 2008-11-22T18:23:29Z Cynthia http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#027a0597-7a5f-4e19-abd1-919b3887142f 2008-11-22T06:32:06Z 2008-11-22T06:32:06Z

Tanemon, great topic and thanks for posting it here. I've spent almost my entire life working with plants. one time when i was caring for plants in an office in chicago, someone asked me if I talk to the plants. No, I replied, they talk to me. First he looked stunned, then he thought I was being funny. No joke I assured him in a light hearted way but I could tell he didn't know what make of it. I have learned over the years about all kinds of plants in all kinds of settings but some of my favorite experiences come from my time caring for interior plants professionally. For several years i spent my days caring for plants in offices, atria, etc. and my nights working with actors. Great combination for me. I loved the balance. So I'd go every week to my accounts and take care of the same plants, and after a while I got to know them all as individuals. I would greet everyone as I approached-just a mental hello and a nod--a mutual respect shared. The plants would always let me know what they needed. More water, less water, more light, a bit of pruning. Almost all of my plants loved to be pruned--really I'm not just projecting here. I'd tell the plant (mentally) that I was going to prune and why. I would do my best to prune with utmost respect; we'd have an energetic exchange and i'd ask them to heal quickly. They almost always did and would respond with healthy new growth. the best way to describe it is to say that I treated them with the same respect that I treated human people. Happy plants, happy clients, happy me. Now and then if I was in tech rehearsal for a show, if I'd rush things a bit, or if as it happened once in a while that I'd prune a plant when I was feeling ill or upset, I'd come back the next week to notice that a pruning wound wouldn't heal as fast, or I'd come back the next week to find yellow leaves or something like that. I noticed this often enough over the years to see the patterns and connections to my energy and the response of the plant. I had my favorites and they responded like favorites--specimen beauties. I had my least favorites and they let know they didn't appreciate my discrimination. They would throw leaves, wilt, fail to grow until I gave them the proper respect. I learned that I did not have to like a plant in order to love it. Oh yes they have taught me alright! I had a client once who had a yucca tree in his bed room. He'd had this plant for many years. Then he became ill and he swore that the plant became ill too and lost all it's leaves. then he recuperated and so did the plant. It wouldn't surprise me if that were indeed the case.

Cynthia 2008-11-22T06:32:06Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#5851c826-69b5-48b1-9d46-3c5a48a35f92 2008-11-22T02:36:45Z 2008-11-22T02:36:45Z

Jay, "MO, to say that a plant has no senses is a very limitied definition of the word senses, and seems to me be a mistaken assumption. Plants, as all living beings, have sensory mechanisms to detect their environment; some which we have understand and have defined scientifically, others which we have not." Well, yes I am using a limited definition, and intentionally so. Limited and precise definitions make communication possible. The senses are understood to refer to the instruments by which we perceive the world outside ourselves. They are limited to sight, sound, touch, taste, and smell. They are the basis of our interaction with the objective world. Plants respond to sunlight, and to the presence of water and nutrients in the soil. But I doubt that these processes involve perception. Our own bodies perform many biological processes that function without our awareness or will. Sam

Sam 2008-11-22T02:36:45Z Yogi madan http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#fec5d3ec-5fc1-474b-8420-50650a99058c 2008-11-21T11:51:13Z 2008-11-21T11:51:13Z

MahaSamadhi means death of a yogi/ will full final leaving of physical body. could not understand you view in this regard. OM

Yogi madan 2008-11-21T11:51:13Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#b1979f7a-736b-408f-932a-4c6954b687ca 2008-11-21T02:27:48Z 2008-11-21T02:27:48Z

Tanemon, "And there is little point in trying to resolve it purely abstractly and theoretically, right now. Experimentation and involvement tend to bring more intimate knowledge," True. I guess I'll have to grow some plants. Unfortunately I haven't read any of the books you mentioned in the original post. I don't know that there's enough evidence to convince a skeptic. Either you believe it or you don't. Sam

Sam 2008-11-21T02:27:48Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#c718ef8b-8735-4e76-a8c9-2b07389f54f7 2008-11-21T02:15:13Z 2008-11-21T02:15:13Z

Mark, "But do not get over excited with the use(s) of Siddhis, for they are a definate distration to MahaSamadhi." How about this one: The development of power proves the efficacy of the teaching. Sam

Sam 2008-11-21T02:15:13Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#0b56bf1a-4ea6-4b0d-968e-c9df29f8be90 2008-11-21T02:04:50Z 2008-11-21T02:04:50Z

Tanemon, "You also wrote: "Also, I think you have to resolve the question of whether the plant is an individual being that is capable of receiving encouragement." Let me re-phrase. I think one has to resolve the question... Otherwise, what's the point? There seems to be some consensus among those who experience communication with plants that a plant is an individual being. I'm not a scientist and I have only a little experience with growing things. But I think its safe to say that a plant is an individual organism. Whether of not there is a self associated with each and every individual organism is one of the deep questions of life. We don't have this question in the case of animals. We assume that because they have senses, there's a self in there. I think we assume that animals experience the world in much the same way that we do. But plants are a different story. Just rambling here. I could go off in a couple of different directions but I won't. Sam

Sam 2008-11-21T02:04:50Z Mark http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#47819a7b-da0d-49c1-975f-a3d8dfabba1a 2008-11-18T23:19:08Z 2008-11-18T23:19:08Z

Aren't plants great? They are our friends. Read The Secret Life of Plants by Christopher Byrd (also). But do not get over excited with the use(s) of Siddhis, for they are a definate distration to MahaSamadhi.

Mark 2008-11-18T23:19:08Z Yogi madan http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#d97afe47-ccaa-4fca-a58d-cd36b979fb03 2008-11-18T10:02:56Z 2008-11-18T10:02:56Z

Yes one can communicate with plants also and can take and give energy to them and communicate with them.It is possible as plants are also living beings and can sense the surroundings very easily. The example on record is of MATA Ji of ARVINDO ASHRAM. I have the same experiences and experiencing it. OM

Yogi madan 2008-11-18T10:02:56Z Jav http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#6016c2bb-9826-4bb1-8699-663a1d54ebea 2008-11-18T02:25:15Z 2008-11-18T02:25:15Z

IMO, to say that a plant has no senses is a very limitied definition of the word senses, and seems to me be a mistaken assumption. Plants, as all living beings, have sensory mechanisms to detect their environment; some which we have understand and have defined scientifically, others which we have not. So if you wish to communicate with a plant-person, then you have to understand first that in a broad and inclusive definition of the word, a plant is a person. Otherwise, why would you attempt to communicate with it? I don't normally attempt to communicate with walls (usually), because normally they don't seem like persons to me. A plant does, so I communicate with them often. But how do you communicate with a plant? Well, how do you communicate with other persons? You introduce yourself, you find out from that person what kinds of behaviors it finds pleasant and harmonious, and what kinds of behaviors it doesn't. Remember, plants don't speak (except for the one in LIttle Shop of Horrors) with the same linguistic construct that we monopolize as speech, or communication. So when you reach out to the plant, it's the intention that you raise that counts, whether it be with speech, song, chanting, simple being together, directing energy at the plant, etc....it's up to you, and what feels right to you. To hear the plant back you must be even more subtle in your listening than in your speech, and accept that communication can happen in a multitude of ways, so best advice is to be still, and receptive, and try to leave the skeptic at home for a little while...... If you want to communicate with your plants, then do so. All plants love offerings. That's a good start......and tobacco is almost always a really good offering.......

Jav 2008-11-18T02:25:15Z Tanemon http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#e9993b4c-a136-4672-9b2d-a6d053e07e6d 2008-11-18T02:07:23Z 2008-11-18T02:07:23Z

You wrote: "I was wondering what was your purpose in interacting with a plant on this level. I see now that you are trying to encourage growth. But if that is all you want, why not just stick to what is already well understood. It seems to me that if you want to interact with a plant on this level, the effect might be to raise the plant's awareness of the outside world and its own individuality. " I've been an organic gardener since I was a kid. I've learned all sorts of things about encouraging growth via cultivation techniques, soil enrichment, etc. That doesn't mean I have no further interest in the subject. Life is for learning You also wrote: "Also, I think you have to resolve the question of whether the plant is an individual being that is capable of receiving encouragement." Well, it's an interesting question you raise. But I don't know if I HAVE to resolve it. And there is little point in trying to resolve it purely abstractly and theoretically, right now. Experimentation and involvement tend to bring more intimate knowledge, and there will always be opportunities for conjecture and theoretical stuff later. The whole subject area actually interests me. So there are my own personal experiences and immediate curiosities, and those of others too. All of this stuff is intriguing to me... I won't limit it.

Tanemon 2008-11-18T02:07:23Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#3fa2b8b9-c7b9-4ad1-a54c-ca8ecf5007c2 2008-11-18T01:12:10Z 2008-11-18T01:12:10Z

"it seems to me that the energy has to be provided in a way that transcends the senses. Who knows how to do that?" "I lov emy plants..."

Sam 2008-11-18T01:12:10Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#db004112-5856-4149-b9c1-dcc1f8c356c0 2008-11-18T01:06:01Z 2008-11-18T01:06:01Z

Tanemon, "However, my own interest in this is more with the energetic encouragement that I believe can be provided to plants by a man or woman which favors the growth of individual plants or garden beds of plants, etc." One year when I was a kid my teacher was an old nun who used to tell the girls to talk to the plants because it made them grow better. I'm hip to the energetic encouragement but I'm trying to understand how it might be possible to know with certainty that the plant is responding to the energy and not just to environmental stimuli. Another problem is how to provide the energetic encouragement. Since the plant doesn't have senses, it seems to me that the energy has to be provided in a way that transcends the senses. Who knows how to do that? Also, I think you have to resolve the question of whether the plant is an individual being that is capable of receiving encouragement. I was wondering what was your purpose in interacting with a plant on this level. I see now that you are trying to encourage growth. But if that is all you want, why not just stick to what is already well understood. It seems to me that if you want to interact with a plant on this level, the effect might be to raise the plant's awareness of the outside world and its own individuality. My own interest is not only how humans and plants are different but how we are the same. Thinking deeply about about the different levels of life that we find in our world helps us to understand ourselves better.

Sam 2008-11-18T01:06:01Z Peter http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#a58ba2f9-0af6-47db-a709-50e5ae39e54c 2008-11-17T20:13:21Z 2008-11-17T20:13:21Z

Um.. cathy.. Spirit Book Club.. pray tell me more? Or is it a secretive society?

Peter 2008-11-17T20:13:21Z Peter http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#d923df55-5af5-40e6-8c7b-33f7533a3ea5 2008-11-17T20:11:14Z 2008-11-17T20:11:14Z

I have a small white spruce that i took from the woods near town as a bonsai. It is doing, well. started out with very dry lower needles. I decided to use conscious healing breath on the needles, and they are now in the process of turning more succulent and green without the addition of water. A family friend of mine, and I make annual trips to the Boundary Waters wilderness canoe area in northern MN every year to make deeper contact with the earth, and to do energy exchanges. Using healing "frequencies" as a medium of exchange with the earth allows the living system to accept your old energy and give you new.. showing you what needs to be done, and telling the earth what has happened in the eye of humanity within the past however long.. pretty cool, and it works wonders to clarify the mind and recollect old teachings, as well as to make way for new ones. Stand barefoot on the earth, warm or cold, and tell me if the conscious exchange of old energy for new experiential forces doesn't allow you to open up to what must be accomplished, said, and given in order to bring due fulfillment to Your purpose as I

Peter 2008-11-17T20:11:14Z Tanemon http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#4b2a2813-b0a0-42e8-ac02-eabb477a3d5a 2008-11-17T04:40:49Z 2008-11-17T04:40:49Z

Okay, yes I read your blog. In one a brief snip, you wrote: " Because it lacks senses, it is incapable of interacting with the outside world in the way that humans and animals do. But we know that plants respond to certain stimuli from their environment; that is, light and heat or the lack of it, availability of water and nutrients in the soil, and the action of insects, other animals, and humans. In fact, we use this knowledge constantly to interact with and manipulate plants on the physical level. The question is, is this reaction to stimuli a form of consciousness?" Dr. Jagadis Chandra Bose, of India, back in the early 20th century did experiments that seemed to suggest a basic sensing on the part of vascular plants. Cleve Backster, an American researcher in the 1950s or '60s, did experiements using more modern electronic monitoring equipment and believed he obtained evidence that plants not only reacted to stimuli akin to our own senses of touch and to pain, but that plants showed evidence of human intentions (e.g., intentions to cut away a stem, etc). However, my own interest in this is more with the energetic encouragement that I believe can be provided to plants by a man or woman which favors the growth of individual plants or garden beds of plants, etc. You seem more interested in the philosophical distinction between humans and plants (each of which have bodies, though perhaps not "minds" or "souls" of an equivalent level). That is an interesting question, and is sort of semi-related, I suppose.

Tanemon 2008-11-17T04:40:49Z Cynthia http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#3be011ea-6770-4419-ba08-137416da92b4 2008-11-17T02:03:17Z 2008-11-17T02:03:17Z

nicely said Jav...thanks

Cynthia 2008-11-17T02:03:17Z yogamoon http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#3bd8d179-a0a3-4cbe-a4d0-03ce8d14c3eb 2008-11-16T22:15:46Z 2008-11-16T22:15:46Z

ther eis a lot mor ein The Intention Experiment.. a recent book. I got my copy from the Spirit Book Club. It is amazing and interesting. I lov emy plants and they generally flourish. I say generally because I just lost soem spinach to a bu gof soem sort.. I didnt catch it in time.

yogamoon 2008-11-16T22:15:46Z Jav http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#84be49eb-8cdc-44b4-992f-317c64994767 2008-11-16T20:58:13Z 2008-11-16T20:58:13Z

Hi Tanemon, well, the essence of bioregional animism is that everybody interact with their community, both of human-persons, and other-than-human-persons, in their own way, in their own place, through whatever means most resonates with them. For some particularly vocal contributors to the tribe, entheogens are a big link in this process, as they have been for many animist societies throughout space and time. For others, that is not really their path. No one on there today, I don't think, would negate the validity of communication without entheogens, with other species. The cleares example of this is Findhorn in Scotland, but there are examples all over space and time as well. So in short, everyone on there participates in multi-species communication as part of their spiritual path, with or without entheogens, so if you want to ask some questions or get some good ideas on the matter, it's not a bad community to share with. As for gardens and what not, several of us on that tribe have studied or are studying permaculture, or have gardens with edibles and medicinals, and have keen links with the health and development of these, as you ask in your post. So again, I think it's a good group to broach the topic with, and if you want the conversation to focus exclusively on communication without entheogens, then it is very much your right to request that in the conversation. Be well, Jav

Jav 2008-11-16T20:58:13Z $item.owner.firstName http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#177583ca-8425-4223-ac23-93234e9cf05d 2008-11-16T20:23:58Z 2008-11-16T20:23:58Z

monkey discovers endogenous neurotransmitter that also occurs in plants so these crystalline way-points are extracted with water, heat or chemistry and then uploaded into the biological star-shaped system of being = universal conscious magic the essence of tantra...right...?

$item.owner.firstName 2008-11-16T20:23:58Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#9c0e3f05-bbc1-41cf-a851-c0d3bc3d2ebd 2008-11-16T18:34:52Z 2008-11-16T18:34:52Z

OK, no sense playing games. Here's what I think: http://samkhya-yoga.org/blogs/reflections/archive/2008/11/16/interacting-with-plants.aspx

Sam 2008-11-16T18:34:52Z Sam http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#edac84f1-2cb1-40a2-8b0d-0557244657ce 2008-11-15T21:54:41Z 2008-11-15T21:54:41Z

Tanemon, This raises a number of interesting philosophical points. First of all, is a plant a body? In other words, is there an individual self associated with it that leaves the body at death? Anybody have an opinion? Sam

Sam 2008-11-15T21:54:41Z Tanemon http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#dc8e0203-e21a-424e-8bd6-d96b38e2f761 2008-11-15T21:47:41Z 2008-11-15T21:47:41Z

Hi, Jav. Thanks. I tried putting the general topic out there on the bioregionalanimism tribe about a year ago. At that time, it seemed that the interest over there was nearly exclusively on entheogenic plants (getting high & tuned in). No one seemed to be looking at it from the standpoint of an interest gardens, planted fields, house plants, or trees... or the health and development of these. Do you feel it would be different now?

Tanemon 2008-11-15T21:47:41Z Jav http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#2fadc0d3-3002-48de-8de4-a342add4763a 2008-11-15T20:04:25Z 2008-11-15T20:04:25Z

Hi Tanemon, Just wanted to share with you that communication with plants forms an important part of the spiritual experiential system of most of the folks over at this tribe: http://tribes.tribe.net/bioregionalanimism?_click_path=Application[tribe].Tribe[b769fdf9-7c51-4158-97fd-ff3e5ae8cc47] Feel free to wander over and check it out, I'm sure you'll get some really interesting responses. Be well, Jav

Jav 2008-11-15T20:04:25Z Tanemon http://allyoga.tribe.net/thread/265491a4-ec3d-45d5-a29e-9ef5f4fe35b3#5827cae4-27b7-4235-8122-8768f46bbeaf 2008-11-15T18:44:20Z 2008-11-15T18:44:20Z

Hi & Namaste I want to find other people who may have been using telepathy or life-force (prana, qi) to deliberately & creatively interact with plants. I'm referring to things along the line of plant/human telepathy, or a person using his/her energy aura (or 'personal exudation') for the purpose - something that is shared with the plants and/or soil. Or some sensitivity you may have to the energy field of the plants themselves. In Paramahansa Yogananda's classic, Autobiography of a Yogi, the author discussed direct interaction with plants as explored in the work of Dr. Bose (of India). This is also the case in later work along these lines (reported in The Secret Life of Plants, and other books). Slightly in contrast with this, in the Findhorn community, in Scotland, two of the community's founders regarded the interaction more in terms of an intelligence behind or with the plants, rather than in the plants themselves (they produced cabbages weighing more than 40 pounds, on a basically sand soil). I don't care about which specific explanation you may subscribe to. I'm maybe less interested in the theory of all this, and more concerned with the experience. A few decades ago, the psychic-energetic encouragement of plant growth was explored by Soviet scientists investigating the abilities of spiritual healers in Russia. In the much more recent book The Celestine Prophecy, author James Redfield depicts a situation where some new-age scientists in South America are exploring the effect of human visualization on the growth of plots of plants. Anyone care to share experiences or thoughts along these lines? Tanemon

Tanemon 2008-11-15T18:44:20Z